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Space Seed

moonbeam6612

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 27

Report this Oct. 03 2013, 2:28 am

Am I the only one who hates it?


I watched it recently in my TOS Marathon, and it is not anywhere near my favorite season 1 episodes.  I didn't care much for Khan, and the whole plot involving Lt. Givers just irritated me to no end. It ruined it for me. The idea that women really deep down want a man who forces them on their knees and tells them what to do, just seriously pissed me off. Givers falling for his "I'm the superior alpha-male you really want!" attitude, ugh.  Cringeworthy, sickening, irritaing, impossible to overlook.


I did love the scsne with Bones and Khan, Bones was fantastic in that one. But otherwise - I'll never watch that again unless I need a blood pressure raise.


(It might have worked better for me if Khan was my type, but my type is very much James T. Kirk. lol)


I found surpisingly much to love in the first season - just watched A taste of Armageddon, and THAT was great! - but this one? Naah.


 


"Course heading, Captain?" "Second star to the right. And straight on 'til morning."

2takesfrakes

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 3683

Report this Oct. 03 2013, 8:14 am

Young women are hard-wired to love A-Holes ...


The only thing about Space Seed that really
bothered me was Kirk's defeat of Khan. Like,
how come nobody on 20th Century Earth ever
thought to beat on him with a paper towel holder?
It was meant as a macho moment for Kirk, but comes
off as being really lazy writing and a kind of a "cheat."


Ricardo Montalbán really did a great job, considering
the material he was given, though. SPACE SEED is kind
of shallow, whenever it's compared to THE WRATH of KHAN.


UninvitedGuest

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POSTS: 180

Report this Oct. 03 2013, 8:23 am

Khan is a sociopath, and being a "womanizer" is often a trait of that mental disorder unfortunately.

TheSpecialist

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POSTS: 3

Report this Oct. 04 2013, 12:48 pm

I liked it. I don't think it generalized women in a negative way. Sure she was completely brainwashed by him but that doesn't mean every female would react the same way to him, she had fascination with that time period and was very excited to get a chance to meet him. The fight scene was cheap and should've been handled in a more believable way. But Ricardo Montalban was excellent, I wish they would have gave him a nationality to match his accent but I still loved him.

USS Sith

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POSTS: 9

Report this Oct. 17 2013, 12:45 am

Interestingly, this episode has gotten better for me over time, but it is not my favourite by a long mile   Just on your point about Lt McGivers, I don't think that it was that she was a weak woman per se, I always found that her behaviour regarding Khan was because she was a bad historian.  It is clear in the episode that she is too emotionally invested in her subject material and that her character shows how being an historian is actually about objective detatchment from the subject.  Lt McGivers represented an historian infatuated with the idea of actually meeting an important historical figure and Khan, picking up on this, tactfully exploited this weakness to gain an advantage on the ship. 


I always hated how Kirk defeats Khan with those random rods in engineering that we never see again.  Although, it was nice that this was referenced in Into Darkness with Spock doing the same thing on the garbage scow. (Some things are just going to happen no matter how much you tamper with the timeline!)


 


"You are an imperfect being created by an imperfect being." Borg proverb

EmpokNorStationManager

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POSTS: 2034

Report this Oct. 18 2013, 7:28 am

Quote: moonbeam6612 @ Oct. 03 2013, 2:28 am

>

>...The idea that women really deep down want a man who forces them on their knees and tells them what to do, just seriously pissed me off. Givers falling for his "I'm the superior alpha-male you really want!" attitude, ugh.  Cringeworthy, sickening, irritaing, impossible to overlook....

>


Even as a guy, gotta admit that that entire aspect of the episode put me off too.  The fact that they portray women as falling all over this self-absorbed sociopath is demeaning...  and makes the women of Star Trek seem very shallow and primal...  


That is all.... Empok Nor Station Manager

moonbeam6612

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POSTS: 27

Report this Oct. 19 2013, 4:41 am

[quote]


Even as a guy, gotta admit that that entire aspect of the episode put me off too.  The fact that they portray women as falling all over this self-absorbed sociopath is demeaning...  and makes the women of Star Trek seem very shallow and primal...  


[/quote]


 


Thank you! It's always great when a man "gets" something like this. And it just happened again, in "Who mourns for Adonai".


"Course heading, Captain?" "Second star to the right. And straight on 'til morning."

TravisMalcolm

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POSTS: 118

Report this Oct. 20 2013, 5:18 pm

She did turn against Kahn and was loyal to Kirk. (I do not dare call Kirk her Captian, it might be misinterpreted.) I am teasing. Still, she did the right thing in the end and took her punishment with a sence of duty to Starfleet. The rest was, I think, mostly (not entirely, monbeam) about the need for another rival for Kirk to deal with. Extremely typical in the Star Trek Universe. There are almost always at least two blocking figures. Also, I suspect that the writers wanted the audiance to believe that Kahn was that guy. How better in the 60s to make the point? 


Blalock & Nimoy were the best two actors in the Star Trek universe. Go Vulcans!

moonbeam6612

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POSTS: 27

Report this Oct. 20 2013, 10:42 pm

By now as I've watched more Star Trek (mostly TNG and TOS), I've got more "used" to the way things happen in Star Trek - namely quickly. Relationships have to happen fast to fit into the 48 minute time frame. No room for subtlety.


I still find the episode overall overrated. I find The Menagerie or Tomorrow is yesterday for example much better and much more noteworthy. I suppose Space Seed became so popular because of the movie. (WOK is NOT my favorite movie, either... I prefer The search for Spock).


"Course heading, Captain?" "Second star to the right. And straight on 'til morning."

TravisMalcolm

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 118

Report this Oct. 21 2013, 4:12 pm

Wow! You have gotten through a lot of the shows. Good for you. I think that Menagerie & Tommorow is Yesterday are 2 of the very best of the entire franchise. Spock & McCoy were so well played by the respective actors. I agree completely with your point about relationships being made quickly. Part of what makes T'Pol one of my favorite characters & Jolene Blalock one of my 2 favorite actors in the entire franshice is that T'Pol grew. She began to see beyond her initial limited view & got to the point where she accepted her emotional life. 2 of the most moving episodes in the whole franchise come nearly @ the end of Entriprise's run. "Demons" & "Terra Prime."  I will not say anything about them lest I spoil the suprise. My opinion is that the producers really, really wanted to explore Vulcans. How humans saw vulcans. And T'Pol became the bookend to Spock. Spock is pretty much fully formed from the first episode, T'Pol is very much a work in progress. Not in a bad way or in a manner of speaking of the quality of her character, her depth. Instead, she is the example of how we Earthlings precieved and learned about Vulcans as much as she is about her own experiences learning about Earthlings.


Blalock & Nimoy were the best two actors in the Star Trek universe. Go Vulcans!

EmpokNorStationManager

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POSTS: 2034

Report this Oct. 21 2013, 8:55 pm

Quote: moonbeam6612 @ Oct. 19 2013, 4:41 am

>Thank you! It's always great when a man "gets" something like this. And it just happened again, in "Who mourns for Adonai".


You're right on that episode as well.  As I sat thinking about it more, I would almost have to completely re-evaluate those episodes and the conduct of the women taking into account the time period in which it was written....  50's - 60's where women's position as equals within the workplace and everyday life was anything but established...  I'm not saying these social issues are dead and buried today, but we've come a long way in 40 years...  I almost think that the writers in TOS are trying to balance the message they WANT to sent about women's equality with the reinforcement of the stereotypes of the day...  


That is all.... Empok Nor Station Manager

TrekFan1964

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POSTS: 61

Report this Nov. 15 2013, 9:18 pm

I think some of you may not have fully understood the character of Lt. McGivers.  She is a woman who has become a historian who had a romantic/idealistic view of Khan; his strength, his power as a leader in a very difficult time, the world he came out of in the past (Eugenics Wars).  She wasn't seeing him as a sociopath.  She wasn't seeing history as being flawed and filled with only what the victors want known.  Lt. McGivers was not that interested in her own time and wished to live in the time of Khan, her discussions and the portrait of him clearly show she has lost her perspective in the situation.  She saw herself being with Khan to create a new race of superhumans.  She only realizes her mistake after Kirk is almost killed in the decompression chamber, which was too late.  One of the key points (or lessons) in the episode and again in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan; if you forget history you are doomed to repeat it

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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POSTS: 46314

Report this Nov. 16 2013, 9:23 am

Quote: TrekFan1964 @ Nov. 15 2013, 9:18 pm

>if you forget history you are doomed to repeat it.
Exactly.  We can see this in many of the episodes.  History is filled with both good and bad examples (and the consequences of each.)  People should study history to learn from it so we don't repeat past mistakes.


But.... the reason history repeats itself is because people don't learn from our past.

cardassian_officer

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POSTS: 35

Report this Feb. 24 2014, 7:04 am

In my opinion "Space Seed" is very good episode,better than ST-12. This is most interesting episode from this TV series.


What do you do if i came on your ship?

Drunkin Druid

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POSTS: 136

Report this Feb. 27 2014, 6:54 am

I think it's strange that one would find Space Seed insulting to women. The whole series pretty well does this! Women are generally portrayed as weak and dependant. I'm mostly turned off by the few comments made by Spock in other episodes. Something about women not being able to use logic...I don't remember the episode but I remember the general statement.

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