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"Valiant" episode

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Oct. 20 2013, 3:18 pm

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Oct. 20 2013, 1:07 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Oct. 20 2013, 12:03 pm

>

>I just read through the episode transcript again and didn't see where it was mentioned that Ramirez ordered Waters to immediately take the ship back to Federation space - it only said that when war broke out, they were trying to get back to the Federation before their battle where Ramirez died.

>Now.... Logically, if Ramirez didn't explicitly state that to Waters as his last order, Waters should have known it.

>
I dont mean to sound rude, but re-read what I posted more carefully.I never said tha Ramirez directly ordered Waters to take the ship back to fed space at once.

What I said was that his last order before the ship was attacked was to return to fed controled space.

and you just pointed to the part that proves my point.If they were on heir way home when tthe fighting started, then its logical to assume the captain ordered them home before the fighting.

I think we're mostly on the same page... but what about Waters saying that he has orders "to collect technical data on a new Dominion battleship operating in this sector." ?

stovokor2000-A

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Report this Oct. 20 2013, 7:08 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Oct. 20 2013, 3:18 pm

>I think we're mostly on the same page... but what about Waters saying that he has orders "to collect technical data on a new Dominion battleship operating in this sector." ?

>
Waters said those orders were intended for Ramirezs.


heres the relevent dialog


NOG: And Starfleet knows you're in command of the Valiant. 
WATTERS: No. We've had to maintain strict radio silence ever since the war began. The orders were addressed to Captain Ramirez, but since he's dead, the mission's now mine. Make no mistake, I will carry out that mission. Or die trying. Dismissed.


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FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Oct. 21 2013, 10:36 am

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Oct. 20 2013, 7:08 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Oct. 20 2013, 3:18 pm

>

>I think we're mostly on the same page... but what about Waters saying that he has orders "to collect technical data on a new Dominion battleship operating in this sector." ?

>
Waters said those orders were intended for Ramirezs.

heres the relevent dialog

NOG: And Starfleet knows you're in command of the Valiant. 
WATTERS: No. We've had to maintain strict radio silence ever since the war began. The orders were addressed to Captain Ramirez, but since he's dead, the mission's now mine. Make no mistake, I will carry out that mission. Or die trying. Dismissed.

Yep - I remember that too, but that doesn't make sense to me.  Why would Starfleet give orders like that to a ship full of cadets (even with a few adult officers?)  And considering that they were caught behind enemy lines and trying to get back to Federation space.... that doesn't make much sense to me.

EmpokNorStationManager

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Report this Oct. 21 2013, 12:10 pm

I would've tossed Nog into the Agonizer....  


That is all.... Empok Nor Station Manager

stovokor2000-A

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Report this Oct. 21 2013, 1:57 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Oct. 21 2013, 10:36 am

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Oct. 20 2013, 7:08 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Oct. 20 2013, 3:18 pm

>

>

>I think we're mostly on the same page... but what about Waters saying that he has orders "to collect technical data on a new Dominion battleship operating in this sector." ?

>
Waters said those orders were intended for Ramirezs.

heres the relevent dialog

NOG: And Starfleet knows you're in command of the Valiant. 
WATTERS: No. We've had to maintain strict radio silence ever since the war began. The orders were addressed to Captain Ramirez, but since he's dead, the mission's now mine. Make no mistake, I will carry out that mission. Or die trying. Dismissed.

Yep - I remember that too, but that doesn't make sense to me.  Why would Starfleet give orders like that to a ship full of cadets (even with a few adult officers?)  And considering that they were caught behind enemy lines and trying to get back to Federation space.... that doesn't make much sense to me.

itr makes sencev to me.


remember, they were only ordered to find,maybe scann the ship in question.they werent ordered to engaGE IT.


 


 


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FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Oct. 22 2013, 11:08 am

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Oct. 21 2013, 1:57 pm

>itr makes sencev to me.

>remember, they were only ordered to find,maybe scann the ship in question.they werent ordered to engaGE IT.
Yes, I know they weren't ordered to engage it, but IMO gathering that type of information should never have been given to a ship mostly crewed by cadets.

stovokor2000-A

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Report this Oct. 22 2013, 11:51 am

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Oct. 22 2013, 11:08 am

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Oct. 21 2013, 1:57 pm

>

>itr makes sencev to me.

>remember, they were only ordered to find,maybe scann the ship in question.they werent ordered to engaGE IT.
Yes, I know they weren't ordered to engage it, but IMO gathering that type of information should never have been given to a ship mostly crewed by cadets.

and its likely under normal sicumstances, a ship full of cadets wouldnt have been given such orders........


but this wasnt a normal situation, it was war time, many ships/crews were going missing with out much explanation.And I dont think the order was given to them as a primary mission.


its likely those orders were sent to Ramierz before or very soon after he died, with astarfleet thinking that since the ship was already out there......."heck why dont you keep an eye out for this new enemy ship on your way back home"


 


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FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Oct. 22 2013, 1:15 pm

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Oct. 22 2013, 11:51 am

>and its likely under normal sicumstances, a ship full of cadets wouldnt have been given such orders........

>but this wasnt a normal situation, it was war time, many ships/crews were going missing with out much explanation.And I dont think the order was given to them as a primary mission.

>its likely those orders were sent to Ramierz before or very soon after he died, with astarfleet thinking that since the ship was already out there......."heck why dont you keep an eye out for this new enemy ship on your way back home"

>
Maybe... I don't know.. People do desperate things in desperate times.  And if they did, Command must have thought they actually had a chance.

kkt

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Report this Oct. 23 2013, 10:16 pm

And they did have a chance; they successfully scanned the ship.  Starfleet gave those orders figuring Ramirez or other adult supervisors would not let them do anything stupid by going beyond their orders.  As it was, Watters not only got some of the most promising cadets at the academy killed but also lost Starfleet a top of the line warship, a tragic loss anytime but especially in wartime.


 

miklamar

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Report this Oct. 25 2013, 5:09 pm

Normally, fortune favors the bold.  But, not always.


Var Miklama--Zakdorn, engineer. "A sound mind in a FULL body!" "Time, like latinum, is a limited quantity in the galaxy."

OtakuJo

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Report this Oct. 25 2013, 6:46 pm

Quote: Mugatu_for_Two @ Sep. 23 2013, 12:18 pm

>

>This has always bugged me. So Jake and Nog are rescued by the Valiant, crewed by cadets, yeah they're "Red Squad", or whatever but they are still cadets. Nog is the only commissioned officer. Shouldn't he have ordered or been given command of the ship instead of acting like he was lucky to serve under these cadet knobs? In my breif military experience you always deferred to rank and Nog was senior in rank, regardless of what these cadets had been doing for the past few months, Nog should have taken command. 

>Yes? No?

>


Setting aside the question of what he did or did not have the right to do (technically a field commission is valid so, IF Watters' story holds true, he did have legitimate command -- but we only have his version of the details, and therefore not much to go on there... I won't get too much into that point, as it's fairly well covered already.)


Where was I?


Oh yes. Regardless of that, it would be entirely out of character for Nog to have suddenly taken command of the ship away from Watters. Remember too that he is quite a young & inexperienced officer and he worships Red Squad. Much more true to character at that point for him to be overawed by the situation. In that sense, whether Nog could or could not have assumed command is largely incidental.


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