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"Valiant" episode

randy kerr

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POSTS: 425

Report this Sep. 28 2013, 7:41 pm

an awesome story.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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POSTS: 46297

Report this Sep. 28 2013, 8:02 pm

Quote: Mugatu_for_Two @ Sep. 27 2013, 3:18 pm

>

>I'm not saying Nog should have taken command of the Valiant and kept fighting Jem'Hadar but he should have imposed his commisioned rank and at least attempted to order the ship to make for the nearest Star Base. The crew violated orders by going all "Lord of the Flies" after their Captain/Instructor died. Nog was in a position to relieve Cap'n Red Squad of his command based on that.

>I understand Nog was either heroic or useless depending on the story and trying to take command of the Valiant probably would have landed him and Jake in the brig but I believe he had a valid right to relieve the "Captain".

>Imagine if it was Worf and Jake who were rescued? Do you think Worf would defer to a cadet captain?

>
If Nog would have tried to take command, the arrogant Red Squad would have placed him in the brig.  Now if a senior officer would have been rescued, I think that Red Squad would have backed down.

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this Sep. 28 2013, 8:44 pm

Quote: kkt @ Sep. 28 2013, 7:31 pm

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Sep. 28 2013, 5:07 pm

Quote: kkt @ Sep. 28 2013, 3:57 pm

>

>

>I am bugged by this too.  What was out of character was Captain Ramirez granting a field commission to Watters.  What purpose could that have?  Watters should have taken the Valiant to the nearest starbase, and he could have done that equally well as senior cadet aboard.  He didn't need a commission or a high rank to do that.

>There are also serious problems with Captain Ramirez promoting someone to his own rank.  Usually officers can't receive a permanent promotion except through Starfleet Command.

>It still made a good story, though.

i'm not sure how you can say what is or isint out of character' for a character we never met.

and the ship's crew was unbder orders to return to federation held space when they were attacked, said attack lead to Ramiez's death.

So its logical to assume he intended Watters to take the ship back home and nothing else.

 and we have seen promotions that were permanet that did not come from hq.

Worf for example.

 

I guess it would be better to say that's not the way any military organization does it.  Even when the practice of brevet ranks was widespread, you didn't go from cadet to colonel (or navy captain) in one jump.

If Ramirez only intended Watters to take the Valient home, why did he need to be commissioned at all?  Just bring the Valiant home successfully would have made any cadet a hero.

We don't really know how much took place off-screen to get officers promoted.  Remember in For the Uniform, Sisko complained that he had recommended Eddington for promotion?  I conclude it's normal for commanding officers to recommend, and Starfleet Command usually but not always agrees.

while sinilar in many ways, starfleet was never intended to be a militery


the ship was manned by cadts completly, Ramirez would likely have felt it nessary to name one for the others to follow.


 


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UninvitedGuest

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POSTS: 180

Report this Oct. 01 2013, 5:26 am


[quote]


I am bugged by this too.  What was out of character was Captain Ramirez granting a field commission to Watters.  What purpose could that have?  Watters should have taken the Valiant to the nearest starbase, and he could have done that equally well as senior cadet aboard.  He didn't need a commission or a high rank to do that.


There are also serious problems with Captain Ramirez promoting someone to his own rank.  Usually officers can't receive a permanent promotion except through Starfleet Command.


It still made a good story, though.


[/quote]


The funny thing about that is how Jake and Nog ran into the Valiant immediately after leaving a Starbase, so they were obviously right next to one. lol


 


EmpokNorStationManager

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POSTS: 2034

Report this Oct. 15 2013, 7:53 am

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Sep. 26 2013, 12:49 pm

>

>ok i understand now

>best answer is that they manufactured their own armaments and did their own repairs.

>remember, Voyager did those things for 7 years.

>


True - but those were seasoned veterans with years of experience...  I would've expected that the crew of Voyager would have the experience and knowledge to do this - not necessarily a crew of cadets who've been assigned on a training mission....


That is all.... Empok Nor Station Manager

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this Oct. 15 2013, 11:00 am

Quote: EmpokNorStationManager @ Oct. 15 2013, 7:53 am

>True - but those were seasoned veterans with years of experience...  I would've expected that the crew of Voyager would have the experience and knowledge to do this - not necessarily a crew of cadets who've been assigned on a training mission....

>
sorry but I dont agree with your assement of the Voyager crew.


to beging with, they left spacedock with about 140 crew members.........loosing quite a few due to the caretaker and then adding the Maquis,Kess and Nelix their number was only in the 150's.


and as we saw, Harry wasnt rhe only young and in-experanced officer on the ship.


best estimates put only about 70 of voyagers crew with years of experances behind them.


and there werent just a bunch of cadets on a training mission....this was red squad.............they are all like a buch of Wesly Cushers, a group of genius officers to be.Top of their class;s in every respect.


 


I dont really see manufcturing arms to be that difficult for them.


 


 


 


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miklamar

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POSTS: 2152

Report this Oct. 17 2013, 3:24 pm

I always assumed that the "Captain" of a ship--whether truly legitimate or not--would remain in command until someone in his/her/its chain of command properly relieved that captain.


So, higher-ranking visitors/guests/passengers would not necessarily take command of a vessel on which they were traveling, automatically.


Of course, you could try to assert your authority, but if the loyal crew outnumbered you, you would probably be sent to the Brig (or punished more severely).  You could record all these things and send them on to Starfleet Command or the nearest starbase (hoping they weren't monitoring your communications).  But, a wise officer should act circumspectly, in order to survive.


Var Miklama--Zakdorn, engineer. "A sound mind in a FULL body!" "Time, like latinum, is a limited quantity in the galaxy."

EmpokNorStationManager

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POSTS: 2034

Report this Oct. 18 2013, 6:23 am

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Oct. 15 2013, 11:00 am

>

>sorry but I dont agree with your assement of the Voyager crew.

>to beging with, they left spacedock with about 140 crew members.........loosing quite a few due to the caretaker and then adding the Maquis,Kess and Nelix their number was only in the 150's.

>and as we saw, Harry wasnt rhe only young and in-experanced officer on the ship.

>best estimates put only about 70 of voyagers crew with years of experances behind them.

>and there werent just a bunch of cadets on a training mission....this was red squad.............they are all like a buch of Wesly Cushers, a group of genius officers to be.Top of their class;s in every respect.

>I dont really see manufcturing arms to be that difficult for them.

>


 


You make some compelling points, however I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  Those crewmembers who did survive the trip to the Delta Quadrant did have experience, as did the Maquis that were integrated into the standing crew.  In fact, I could make the case that the VOY crew benefited from the guerilla-like Maquis in "using what they could find" type techniques.  


 


And I still struggle with cadets running this ship without any field experience (save what they've picked up on this mission).  I guess I'm old, but there is a significant difference between knowledge and wisdom.  Some things can't be taught in a classroom, even to one as gifted as Wesley Crusher.


That is all.... Empok Nor Station Manager

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Oct. 18 2013, 3:01 pm

[quote]


[quote]


sorry but I dont agree with your assement of the Voyager crew.


to beging with, they left spacedock with about 140 crew members.........loosing quite a few due to the caretaker and then adding the Maquis,Kess and Nelix their number was only in the 150's.


and as we saw, Harry wasnt rhe only young and in-experanced officer on the ship.


best estimates put only about 70 of voyagers crew with years of experances behind them.


and there werent just a bunch of cadets on a training mission....this was red squad.............they are all like a buch of Wesly Cushers, a group of genius officers to be.Top of their class;s in every respect.


 


I dont really see manufcturing arms to be that difficult for them.


[/quote]


 


You make some compelling points, however I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  Those crewmembers who did survive the trip to the Delta Quadrant did have experience, as did the Maquis that were integrated into the standing crew.  In fact, I could make the case that the VOY crew benefited from the guerilla-like Maquis in "using what they could find" type techniques.  


 


And I still struggle with cadets running this ship without any field experience (save what they've picked up on this mission).  I guess I'm old, but there is a significant difference between knowledge and wisdom.  Some things can't be taught in a classroom, even to one as gifted as Wesley Crusher.


[/quote]I see what you are saying as well.


an other thing to keep in mind is that some oif those cadets were on their 4th year,they would have had some, if not pleanty, of feild experance by then.


 


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FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Oct. 19 2013, 12:04 pm

Quote: UninvitedGuest @ Oct. 01 2013, 5:26 am

>The funny thing about that is how Jake and Nog ran into the Valiant immediately after leaving a Starbase, so they were obviously right next to one. lol
That annoyed me too... If they were really that close to a starbase, Ramirez would have ordered Waters to take the ship back.

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this Oct. 19 2013, 12:44 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Oct. 19 2013, 12:04 pm

Quote: UninvitedGuest @ Oct. 01 2013, 5:26 am

>

>The funny thing about that is how Jake and Nog ran into the Valiant immediately after leaving a Starbase, so they were obviously right next to one. lol
That annoyed me too... If they were really that close to a starbase, Ramirez would have ordered Waters to take the ship back.

dude, the last order he gave before the ship was attacked was to return to federation controled space.


i'm sure he expected Waters to carry out his orders.


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UninvitedGuest

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Report this Oct. 19 2013, 11:29 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Oct. 19 2013, 12:04 pm

Quote: UninvitedGuest @ Oct. 01 2013, 5:26 am

> >

>The funny thing about that is how Jake and Nog ran into the Valiant immediately after leaving a Starbase, so they were obviously right next to one. lol
That annoyed me too... If they were really that close to a starbase, Ramirez would have ordered Waters to take the ship back.


Red Squad kinda implied that they were "lost in space" especially how their warp-drive was only partially working. People in this thread are even comparing them to Voyager and talking about them manufacting torpedos even though the Valiant was just a few minutes from that starbase at the beginning of the episode.



stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this Oct. 20 2013, 10:06 am

Quote: UninvitedGuest @ Oct. 19 2013, 11:29 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Oct. 19 2013, 12:04 pm

Quote: UninvitedGuest @ Oct. 01 2013, 5:26 am

>

> >

>The funny thing about that is how Jake and Nog ran into the Valiant immediately after leaving a Starbase, so they were obviously right next to one. lol
That annoyed me too... If they were really that close to a starbase, Ramirez would have ordered Waters to take the ship back.

Red Squad kinda implied that they were "lost in space" especially how their warp-drive was only partially working. People in this thread are even comparing them to Voyager and talking about them manufacting torpedos even though the Valiant was just a few minutes from that starbase at the beginning of the episode.

Red Squad NEVER implied that they were "lost in space" ............only stuck behind enemy lines and only capable of low warp speeds....[maybe factor 5.]


althou that seems contradicted by how fast NNog ran into them after leaving the starbase


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FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Oct. 20 2013, 12:03 pm

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Oct. 19 2013, 12:44 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Oct. 19 2013, 12:04 pm

Quote: UninvitedGuest @ Oct. 01 2013, 5:26 am

>

>

>The funny thing about that is how Jake and Nog ran into the Valiant immediately after leaving a Starbase, so they were obviously right next to one. lol
That annoyed me too... If they were really that close to a starbase, Ramirez would have ordered Waters to take the ship back.

dude, the last order he gave before the ship was attacked was to return to federation controled space.

i'm sure he expected Waters to carry out his orders.

I just read through the episode transcript again and didn't see where it was mentioned that Ramirez ordered Waters to immediately take the ship back to Federation space - it only said that when war broke out, they were trying to get back to the Federation before their battle where Ramirez died.


Now.... Logically, if Ramirez didn't explicitly state that to Waters as his last order, Waters should have known it.

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this Oct. 20 2013, 1:07 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Oct. 20 2013, 12:03 pm

>I just read through the episode transcript again and didn't see where it was mentioned that Ramirez ordered Waters to immediately take the ship back to Federation space - it only said that when war broke out, they were trying to get back to the Federation before their battle where Ramirez died.

>Now.... Logically, if Ramirez didn't explicitly state that to Waters as his last order, Waters should have known it.

>
I dont mean to sound rude, but re-read what I posted more carefully.I never said tha Ramirez directly ordered Waters to take the ship back to fed space at once.


What I said was that his last order before the ship was attacked was to return to fed controled space.


and you just pointed to the part that proves my point.If they were on heir way home when tthe fighting started, then its logical to assume the captain ordered them home before the fighting.


 


 


 


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