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"Valiant" episode

Mugatu_for_Two

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POSTS: 129

Report this Sep. 23 2013, 12:18 pm

This has always bugged me. So Jake and Nog are rescued by the Valiant, crewed by cadets, yeah they're "Red Squad", or whatever but they are still cadets. Nog is the only commissioned officer. Shouldn't he have ordered or been given command of the ship instead of acting like he was lucky to serve under these cadet knobs? In my breif military experience you always deferred to rank and Nog was senior in rank, regardless of what these cadets had been doing for the past few months, Nog should have taken command. 


 


Yes? No?

UninvitedGuest

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POSTS: 180

Report this Sep. 24 2013, 6:46 am

They did that because of the other episode in which Red Squad was mentioned where Nog was saying he thought they were super-cool. But then again that was before he became a full ensign.

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this Sep. 24 2013, 1:48 pm

Quote: Mugatu_for_Two @ Sep. 23 2013, 12:18 pm

>

>This has always bugged me. So Jake and Nog are rescued by the Valiant, crewed by cadets, yeah they're "Red Squad", or whatever but they are still cadets. Nog is the only commissioned officer. Shouldn't he have ordered or been given command of the ship instead of acting like he was lucky to serve under these cadet knobs? In my breif military experience you always deferred to rank and Nog was senior in rank, regardless of what these cadets had been doing for the past few months, Nog should have taken command. 

>Yes? No?

>
No.


remember the cadet serving as captain was given a battle feild promotion to captain.............at least thats what he claimed.


 


so his rank was solid till a superior officer relieved him.


 


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skok

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Report this Sep. 24 2013, 7:04 pm

i posted this once, but something went wrong, sorry if ithis is a double post. . . .


 


YES. . . .

skok

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POSTS: 24

Report this Sep. 24 2013, 7:09 pm

follow up, assuming my first post went where Spocks Mother went. . . . .


Always annoyed by that episode. . . dont get me wrong, i liked seein another Defiant. . . .but really???  2of the Only 3 survivors are Jake & Nog. . . . .& the Valiant, without a cloaking device, are gonna go all those months without detection. . . .


 

EmpokNorStationManager

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POSTS: 2034

Report this Sep. 26 2013, 11:05 am

His field commission outranked and superseded Nog's rank.  Therefore he was not obligated to relinquish command of the Valiant.  


 


To be honest, I found it very suspect that a group of cadets (no matter how well trained) would've been able to survive alone in a near-constant combat situation without some type of logistical support.  


That is all.... Empok Nor Station Manager

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this Sep. 26 2013, 11:52 am

Quote: EmpokNorStationManager @ Sep. 26 2013, 11:05 am

>

>His field commission outranked and superseded Nog's rank.  Therefore he was not obligated to relinquish command of the Valiant.  

>To be honest, I found it very suspect that a group of cadets (no matter how well trained) would've been able to survive alone in a near-constant combat situation without some type of logistical support.  

>
from what I recall, they were getting tactial updates and from starfleet on a regular bases.But starfleet thought the captain was getting those orders.


 


 


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EmpokNorStationManager

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Report this Sep. 26 2013, 12:23 pm

I guess when I say "logistical support" I'm referring to rearmament of munitions, repairs at starbases, etc....  Tactical communiques and the such it would make sense they contineud to recieve, I was thinking more of the material....


That is all.... Empok Nor Station Manager

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this Sep. 26 2013, 12:49 pm

Quote: EmpokNorStationManager @ Sep. 26 2013, 12:23 pm

>

>I guess when I say "logistical support" I'm referring to rearmament of munitions, repairs at starbases, etc....  Tactical communiques and the such it would make sense they contineud to recieve, I was thinking more of the material....

>
ok i understand now


 


best answer is that they manufactured their own armaments and did their own repairs.


remember, Voyager did those things for 7 years.


 


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Fleet Admiral Braxton

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Report this Sep. 26 2013, 7:12 pm

The Answer is Simple; Nog Had NO Command Experience; If He Had Taken Over, He Would have Crapped his Pants At The First sign Of a Dominion Warship; A Good Example Of This Is the TOS Episode 'The Deadly Years',Where Kirk,Spock,And Scotty,All with Command Experience,Were Incapacitated By Premature Aging; The only Available Officer Was A COMMODORE Being Transported  by the Enterprise; And What Does he do First? He Takes The Enterprise Into The Romulan Neutral Zone,Then, When they Are Surrounded by The Romulans, HE TOTALLY FREEZES UP! Thankfully, Kirk Was Able To Take Back His chair,And Get Them The Hell out of There,Alive! The Point is, It's One thing To Have Superior Rank; The Other Is To Know What The Hell You Are Doing When You Are Responsible For Hundreds Of Lives!

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Sep. 27 2013, 10:12 am

^^ Exactly right.  In the real military, only those with the proper training can take command.  You wouldn't want some lawyer or doctor with the rank of Captain to take over if they didn't have command training.

Mugatu_for_Two

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POSTS: 129

Report this Sep. 27 2013, 3:18 pm

I'm not saying Nog should have taken command of the Valiant and kept fighting Jem'Hadar but he should have imposed his commisioned rank and at least attempted to order the ship to make for the nearest Star Base. The crew violated orders by going all "Lord of the Flies" after their Captain/Instructor died. Nog was in a position to relieve Cap'n Red Squad of his command based on that.


I understand Nog was either heroic or useless depending on the story and trying to take command of the Valiant probably would have landed him and Jake in the brig but I believe he had a valid right to relieve the "Captain".


Imagine if it was Worf and Jake who were rescued? Do you think Worf would defer to a cadet captain?

kkt

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POSTS: 170

Report this Sep. 28 2013, 3:57 pm

I am bugged by this too.  What was out of character was Captain Ramirez granting a field commission to Watters.  What purpose could that have?  Watters should have taken the Valiant to the nearest starbase, and he could have done that equally well as senior cadet aboard.  He didn't need a commission or a high rank to do that.


There are also serious problems with Captain Ramirez promoting someone to his own rank.  Usually officers can't receive a permanent promotion except through Starfleet Command.


It still made a good story, though.


 


 

stovokor2000-A

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Report this Sep. 28 2013, 5:07 pm

Quote: kkt @ Sep. 28 2013, 3:57 pm

>I am bugged by this too.  What was out of character was Captain Ramirez granting a field commission to Watters.  What purpose could that have?  Watters should have taken the Valiant to the nearest starbase, and he could have done that equally well as senior cadet aboard.  He didn't need a commission or a high rank to do that.

>There are also serious problems with Captain Ramirez promoting someone to his own rank.  Usually officers can't receive a permanent promotion except through Starfleet Command.

>It still made a good story, though.


i'm not sure how you can say what is or isint out of character' for a character we never met.


and the ship's crew was unbder orders to return to federation held space when they were attacked, said attack lead to Ramiez's death.


So its logical to assume he intended Watters to take the ship back home and nothing else.


 and we have seen promotions that were permanet that did not come from hq.


Worf for example.


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kkt

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Report this Sep. 28 2013, 7:31 pm

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Sep. 28 2013, 5:07 pm

Quote: kkt @ Sep. 28 2013, 3:57 pm

>

>I am bugged by this too.  What was out of character was Captain Ramirez granting a field commission to Watters.  What purpose could that have?  Watters should have taken the Valiant to the nearest starbase, and he could have done that equally well as senior cadet aboard.  He didn't need a commission or a high rank to do that.

>There are also serious problems with Captain Ramirez promoting someone to his own rank.  Usually officers can't receive a permanent promotion except through Starfleet Command.

>It still made a good story, though.

i'm not sure how you can say what is or isint out of character' for a character we never met.

and the ship's crew was unbder orders to return to federation held space when they were attacked, said attack lead to Ramiez's death.

So its logical to assume he intended Watters to take the ship back home and nothing else.

 and we have seen promotions that were permanet that did not come from hq.

Worf for example.


 


I guess it would be better to say that's not the way any military organization does it.  Even when the practice of brevet ranks was widespread, you didn't go from cadet to colonel (or navy captain) in one jump.


If Ramirez only intended Watters to take the Valient home, why did he need to be commissioned at all?  Just bring the Valiant home successfully would have made any cadet a hero.


We don't really know how much took place off-screen to get officers promoted.  Remember in For the Uniform, Sisko complained that he had recommended Eddington for promotion?  I conclude it's normal for commanding officers to recommend, and Starfleet Command usually but not always agrees.

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