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Constitution Day

EmpokNorStationManager

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Report this Oct. 21 2013, 12:19 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Oct. 21 2013, 12:13 pm

>The more authoritarian the ....... is, the less involvement they want from the ........


How ironic - sounds vaguely familiar with another discussion on this thread....  


That is all.... Empok Nor Station Manager

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Oct. 21 2013, 12:22 pm

Quote: EmpokNorStationManager @ Oct. 21 2013, 12:05 pm

>I think it's interesting to review the original intent of the documents that set forth our government and weigh that against how that same government actually operates today - almost like the telephone game...  I tell you, you tell him, he tells her....  by the time it gets back to you it's completely garbeled...  kinda like the way our Federal government stands today...
I wish it was that innocent... but some people are purposefully revising what was written.... saying that the Founders meant the exact opposite of what they clearly wrote.  This is why when I lecture on history, I use the original documents, not some "historians" viewpoint of what the Founders meant.  (This also drives the pro-tyranny people absolutely nuts!  )

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Oct. 21 2013, 12:24 pm

Quote: EmpokNorStationManager @ Oct. 21 2013, 12:19 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Oct. 21 2013, 12:13 pm

>

>The more authoritarian the ....... is, the less involvement they want from the ........

How ironic - sounds vaguely familiar with another discussion on this thread....  

yep - it's the authoritarian mindset - the citizens are just slaves of the government and should never voice an opinion that contradicts the wishes of the tyrants.  (Tyranny doesn't have to be limited to the federal level.)

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Oct. 21 2013, 6:01 pm

Oh... something else that I forgot to add... one group of people that really appreciate the Constitution are those that escaped from authoritarian regimes.  Every once in a while, I get to take one or two to a class to discuss their lives under such oppression.  What's interesting is that the people that escaped from China, North Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, Iran, etc. keep warning us that the USA is heading toward the very tyranny they escaped from.

darmokattanagra

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Report this Oct. 21 2013, 6:15 pm

EmpokNorStationManager - To give Darmok some credit above, I don't think the Founders covered every equality question from the start, however I think the FRAMEWORK of what they constructed gave the country the tools to rectify the inequalities that existed (and continue to be even today).

I might agree with this if I didn't know for a fact that it was a slaveowner who proposed the Constitution. Or that 25 of the 55 delgates who drafted the Constitution were slaveowners. Or that there were provisions in the Constitution that protected slavery. Or that 7 of the first 10 U.S. Presidents were slaveowners.

I find it hard to believe these men ever intended the government to address said equality problems.

Bam - This also drives the pro-tyranny people absolutely nuts!

Again, more absurd and insulting strawman attacks. Who here is pro-tyranny? Who is advocating authoritarianism?

EmpokNorStationManager

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Report this Oct. 21 2013, 7:03 pm

Quote: darmokattanagra @ Oct. 21 2013, 6:15 pm

>I might agree with this if I didn't know for a fact that it was a slaveowner who proposed the Constitution. Or that 25 of the 55 delgates who drafted the Constitution were slaveowners. Or that there were provisions in the Constitution that protected slavery. Or that 7 of the first 10 U.S. Presidents were slaveowners.

>
I find it hard to believe these men ever intended the government to address said equality problems.


Then why not draft the Constitution to specifically legalize slavery, or call out specifically that only white males retain certain rights, and not all creeds, colors, and both sexes?  If the drafters of this document were as intelligent as purported, then why leave these specifics out of the language of the document and eventually for some other body to define?


That is all.... Empok Nor Station Manager

EmpokNorStationManager

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Report this Oct. 21 2013, 7:07 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Oct. 21 2013, 6:01 pm

>

>Oh... something else that I forgot to add... one group of people that really appreciate the Constitution are those that escaped from authoritarian regimes.  Every once in a while, I get to take one or two to a class to discuss their lives under such oppression.  What's interesting is that the people that escaped from China, North Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, Iran, etc. keep warning us that the USA is heading toward the very tyranny they escaped from.

>


You're painting a picture of why I try to avoid politics and the news....  We've created a society where one man feels like he cannot make a difference anymore, can't go against the mega-government or overcome the mega-deficit....  


That is all.... Empok Nor Station Manager

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Oct. 21 2013, 8:16 pm

Quote: EmpokNorStationManager @ Oct. 21 2013, 7:07 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Oct. 21 2013, 6:01 pm

>

>

>Oh... something else that I forgot to add... one group of people that really appreciate the Constitution are those that escaped from authoritarian regimes.  Every once in a while, I get to take one or two to a class to discuss their lives under such oppression.  What's interesting is that the people that escaped from China, North Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, Iran, etc. keep warning us that the USA is heading toward the very tyranny they escaped from.

>

You're painting a picture of why I try to avoid politics and the news....  We've created a society where one man feels like he cannot make a difference anymore, can't go against the mega-government or overcome the mega-deficit....  

Yea, it's definitely overwhelming, but avoiding it is exactly what the anti-Constitution, anti-Liberty people want - they want us silenced while they're out destroying everything.  They've been implementing their long-term plan to "progress" away from the Constitution for decades.


Education is the key - arm yourself with knowledge! This is why I lecture at schools and try to help people to understand facts vs. revisionist history.  It's also part of the reason why I take the time to point out on this site what's going on - giving a different perspective. (Even though a few people here try to silence me because they hate the facts that I reference and voice my opinion.)

EmpokNorStationManager

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Report this Oct. 21 2013, 8:48 pm

I appreciate the facts, and I appreciate the debate....  I fear the ignorance...  I fear the inability to distinguish socialism from a representative democracy.


That is all.... Empok Nor Station Manager

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Oct. 21 2013, 9:00 pm

Quote: EmpokNorStationManager @ Oct. 21 2013, 7:03 pm

>Then why not draft the Constitution to specifically legalize slavery, or call out specifically that only white males retain certain rights, and not all creeds, colors, and both sexes?  If the drafters of this document were as intelligent as purported, then why leave these specifics out of the language of the document and eventually for some other body to define?
Not sure who you're talking to, but I can guess.... (I'm blocking comments from certain monikers - see my signature.)


As anyone that has read the links I've provided at the top of the thread, slavery was heavily discussed during the Constitutional Convention - it was very contentious and almost destroyed any chances of an ageement, but they compromised and agreed that slavery would be phased out over time.... but those that loved control chose to ignore that agreement over time.  But... IMO, the best person to read on this subject is Frederick Douglass.


And of course, I could provide hundreds of anti-slavery quotes from many of the Founding Fathers....


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Oct. 21 2013, 9:02 pm

Quote: EmpokNorStationManager @ Oct. 21 2013, 8:48 pm

>

>I appreciate the facts, and I appreciate the debate....  I fear the ignorance...  I fear the inability to distinguish socialism from a representative democracy.

>
We're all ignorant about a lot of things.


One thing I reference when people don't understand the different forms of government is here.

EmpokNorStationManager

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Report this Oct. 21 2013, 9:08 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Oct. 21 2013, 9:02 pm

>One thing I reference when people don't understand the different forms of government is here.


Well put....  I agree that we're all ignorant to a degree....  Maybe I should've said "ignorance coupled with arrogance."  


That is all.... Empok Nor Station Manager

darmokattanagra

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Report this Oct. 21 2013, 10:14 pm

Quote: EmpokNorStationManager @ Oct. 21 2013, 7:03 pm

Quote: darmokattanagra @ Oct. 21 2013, 6:15 pm

>

>I might agree with this if I didn't know for a fact that it was a slaveowner who proposed the Constitution. Or that 25 of the 55 delgates who drafted the Constitution were slaveowners. Or that there were provisions in the Constitution that protected slavery. Or that 7 of the first 10 U.S. Presidents were slaveowners.

>
I find it hard to believe these men ever intended the government to address said equality problems.

Then why not draft the Constitution to specifically legalize slavery, or call out specifically that only white males retain certain rights, and not all creeds, colors, and both sexes?  If the drafters of this document were as intelligent as purported, then why leave these specifics out of the language of the document and eventually for some other body to define?


Individual states already had laws regarding the legality of slavery and the voting rights (or lack thereof) of women.


As for your second question, I think they were too busy looking at the trees to notice the forest. Southern Anti-Federalists at the time spoke out against the Constitution in fear that it would be interpreted to abolish slavery but that fear was all but alleviated after the passing of the Bill of Rights. Of course, Southern dominance of the Federal government during the 70 years following ratification didn't hurt either.


Bam - It's also part of the reason why I take the time to point out on this site what's going on - giving a different perspective. (Even though a few people here try to silence me because they hate the facts that I reference and voice my opinion.)

Thank you for finally admitting that you're just here to piss off real Trekkies.

EmpokNorStationManager

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Report this Oct. 22 2013, 6:07 am

Quote: darmokattanagra @ Oct. 21 2013, 10:14 pm

>Individual states already had laws regarding the legality of slavery and the voting rights (or lack thereof) of women.


 


So what you're saying is that the specific language was not necessarily considered for the Constitution because individual states had already built it into their statutes at the state level.  I could see where that is plausible, especially if it was such a sticky point - the "ignorance is bliss" theory may apply?  i.e. we can't agree on how to proceed with slavery so we'll leave it to the states to make their own determination and have "no comment" on it at the federal level.


That is all.... Empok Nor Station Manager

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Oct. 22 2013, 8:01 am

Quote: EmpokNorStationManager @ Oct. 21 2013, 9:08 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Oct. 21 2013, 9:02 pm

>

>One thing I reference when people don't understand the different forms of government is here.

Well put....  I agree that we're all ignorant to a degree....  Maybe I should've said "ignorance coupled with arrogance."  

Yes... and then when they couple those with deceit...., it's just plain dangerous.  We used to have a lot more pro-liberty people here, but they've been ran off by the pro-tyranny ones.


When I grew up, my favorite show was Star Trek... and learned that Starfleet was not only there to explore the galaxy, but fight for the liberty of others.  They kept fighting against tyranny wherever they found it.  It made a big impact on my life.  In addition, they tried to be honest with themselves and others.  (One of my favorite quotes in TNG was when Picard said, "The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth. Whether it's scientific truth, or historical truth, or personal truth. It is the guiding principle upon which Starfleet is based."  Too bad those lessons were lost on some others.

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