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They made Janeway too selfish at times...

Captain Plunjer

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POSTS: 33

Report this Sep. 10 2013, 10:23 pm

Started with the episode Death Wish where one Q wanted to kill himself with Q (John Delancy) trying to stop him .... i  Always found that to be Captain Janeways most horrifying moment as a captain .... Q makes her a deal .... rule in his favor and voyager will be immediatley brought back to earth ....  and she didnt!


The there were the other Q epsiodes which include her helping Q with the continuam civil war ad eventually her being the god mother to Q's son .... with all those helpful things she did for Q.... she never once asked him to do her a slight favor and bring the ship home or at least send them a couple of thousand light years closer? ...


Always felt that those episodes made her look a bit too selfish in her own morals....


 

rob39874

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 142

Report this Sep. 11 2013, 12:53 am

I agree Tuvix is a prime example. Tuvok and Neelix were merged by accident and became a new lifeform the only ojne if it's kind and due to Janeway she ordered them to be seperated. Primarily killing this lifeform one of the reasons why I hate Janeway as a captain and there is other episodes which brings her morality into question

willowtree

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POSTS: 1137

Report this Sep. 13 2013, 9:09 am

janeway is selfish because she didn't respond to a bribe? a bribe that would mean imprisoning another being, someone wh came to her for help. If she HAD accepted that bribe, THAT would have made her selfish

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Sep. 13 2013, 6:13 pm

Quote: Captain Plunjer @ Sep. 10 2013, 10:23 pm

>

>Started with the episode Death Wish where one Q wanted to kill himself with Q (John Delancy) trying to stop him .... i  Always found that to be Captain Janeways most horrifying moment as a captain .... Q makes her a deal .... rule in his favor and voyager will be immediatley brought back to earth ....  and she didnt!

>The there were the other Q epsiodes which include her helping Q with the continuam civil war ad eventually her being the god mother to Q's son .... with all those helpful things she did for Q.... she never once asked him to do her a slight favor and bring the ship home or at least send them a couple of thousand light years closer? ...

>Always felt that those episodes made her look a bit too selfish in her own morals....

>
I do recall her asking him once........i'll check and get back


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stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this Sep. 13 2013, 6:14 pm

Quote: rob39874 @ Sep. 11 2013, 12:53 am

>

>I agree Tuvix is a prime example. Tuvok and Neelix were merged by accident and became a new lifeform the only ojne if it's kind and due to Janeway she ordered them to be seperated. Primarily killing this lifeform one of the reasons why I hate Janeway as a captain and there is other episodes which brings her morality into question

>
right..............she chose the needs of 2 lives over the needs of 1 life...........seems logical to me


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medic_gurl

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6

Report this Sep. 14 2013, 5:16 pm

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Sep. 13 2013, 6:14 pm

>
right..............she chose the needs of 2 lives over the needs of 1 life...........seems logical to me


I have to disagree with you on that point. She did choose the lives of 2 over 1, but . . . the 2 lives she chose had already died. They were gone. Tuvix was a new being, and deserved the right to live. She essentially killed 1 living breathing person, to bring back her friends.


Having said that, obviously Tuvix would have been an odd addition and I think we all wanted Tuvok and Neelix back.


 

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Sep. 14 2013, 5:24 pm

Quote: medic_gurl @ Sep. 14 2013, 5:16 pm

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Sep. 13 2013, 6:14 pm

>

>
right..............she chose the needs of 2 lives over the needs of 1 life...........seems logical to me

I have to disagree with you on that point. She did choose the lives of 2 over 1, but . . . the 2 lives she chose had already died. They were gone. Tuvix was a new being, and deserved the right to live. She essentially killed 1 living breathing person, to bring back her friends.

Having said that, obviously Tuvix would have been an odd addition and I think we all wanted Tuvok and Neelix back.

 

see, thats the issue right there.The 2 werent really dead and gone.


those 2 lines were "lost" inside of Tuvix but they werent really dead or gone.


I agree Tuvix had a right to live his life........but so did Tuvok and Neelix.


and if Tuvix lived the other 2 could not.


needs of the many over the needs of the one.


 


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medic_gurl

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POSTS: 6

Report this Sep. 14 2013, 6:10 pm

You do make valid points. And I agree, Tuvok and Neelix did deserve to live. But there just seems to be something inherenty wrong with having to kill an innocent man, who was not the reason they died. He was the product of an accident, but that accident did cause a new life, a being that had never, and would never exist again. Seems like "to seek out new life" would fit here.


I would agree, with the original thread, that this is an example of Janeway's selfishness, though I wouldn't call her a selfish person. I would say, especially toward the end, that she could be high and mighty and convinced of her own superiority.

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Sep. 14 2013, 6:34 pm

i see your points as well....................my problem here is that they should have been able to clone tuvix.......either by cloneing tech or trasporter duplication.


that way all could have lived


 

Five Captains

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POSTS: 75

Report this Sep. 15 2013, 1:39 pm

I think the thing with Tuvix is there is no real right or wrong answer. I have to admit that if I were in her shoes I am not sure what decision I would have made. Personally I think that is what makes Tuvix such a great Star Trek episode. It makes you ask questions. At times it can even make you question your own thoughts about a subject. It makes you wonder what is right or wrong.

Captain Plunjer

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 33

Report this Sep. 15 2013, 9:55 pm

i thought janeway was great... i only made the post cause i found those specific episodes unsettling ... as those were the best example of her choosing something else over her crew....she never once explored what could have been the fastest and easiest way home ... 

rob39874

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 142

Report this Sep. 16 2013, 1:14 am

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Sep. 13 2013, 6:14 pm

Quote: rob39874 @ Sep. 11 2013, 12:53 am

>

>

>I agree Tuvix is a prime example. Tuvok and Neelix were merged by accident and became a new lifeform the only ojne if it's kind and due to Janeway she ordered them to be seperated. Primarily killing this lifeform one of the reasons why I hate Janeway as a captain and there is other episodes which brings her morality into question

>
right..............she chose the needs of 2 lives over the needs of 1 life...........seems logical to me


But she made a new life extinct so yes she chose the needs of the many over the needs of the one. I just believe making a lifeform extinct just so she can get her friends back who are aware of the risk when joining starfleet a bit selfish

Quoth

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POSTS: 1

Report this Sep. 16 2013, 7:05 am

How can you say that it was selfish of her to seperate the two? They were completely different species merged together and a one of a kind.


 


1. The 'new' species would have died out inevitably anyway.


2. How can you tell if the two species merged are even compatable. Tuvix could have fallen ill days, weeks or years down the line due to incompatabilities of the two species that were combined.
Keeping Tuvix alive as a 'science experiment' would have in my oppinion been much more morraly wrong than restoring him to the two healthy people that he was before the merge.

willowtree

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1137

Report this Sep. 16 2013, 12:15 pm

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Sep. 14 2013, 6:34 pm

>

>i see your points as well....................my problem here is that they should have been able to clone tuvix.......either by cloneing tech or trasporter duplication.

>that way all could have lived

>


how would making a clone solve anyting. One would still have to die. Even though there is a clone left you're still killing a living sentient being. I'm sure that one who will die has no comfort in the fact that there is a clone of them, as far as they're concerned their life is about to end

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Sep. 16 2013, 7:52 pm

Quote: rob39874 @ Sep. 16 2013, 1:14 am

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Sep. 13 2013, 6:14 pm

Quote: rob39874 @ Sep. 11 2013, 12:53 am

>

>

>

>I agree Tuvix is a prime example. Tuvok and Neelix were merged by accident and became a new lifeform the only ojne if it's kind and due to Janeway she ordered them to be seperated. Primarily killing this lifeform one of the reasons why I hate Janeway as a captain and there is other episodes which brings her morality into question

>
right..............she chose the needs of 2 lives over the needs of 1 life...........seems logical to me

But she made a new life extinct so yes she chose the needs of the many over the needs of the one. I just believe making a lifeform extinct just so she can get her friends back who are aware of the risk when joining starfleet a bit selfish

its not like that new "species" could have reproduced the normal way


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