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A true Star Trek Fans honest and as neutral take on the JJ movie debate

davidjskipper

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POSTS: 9

Report this Jun. 28 2013, 5:52 am

In the battle of long lasting Trek lovers and the JJ movies lovers, let me put my 2 cents in. Those who have not known and loved what Star Trek is see these as good movies. I am overjoyed that JJ was able to reach a new generation to a loose concept of Star Trek and I hope they continue by watching the originals and reading some books, then they may have a bit of understanding why so many are upset. Rod JR. and Leonard Nimoy are being quoted as endorsing these films and therefore giving validation to them. Well again, from my view point, Rod JR seems nice but has said in interviews he did not understand his father very well so though I respect his input he falls into the group who does not fully get Star Trek. I am happy he is trying to connect with his father who died when he was so young but that does not make his approval mean his father or mother would approve so what is his “validation” really worth?  Spock was always my favorite character to platy as a kid, I respect much of Nimoy's work, but with an open mind read or watch interviews of Nimoy and you will see man who puts others down frequently and refused to have any part of Movies and shows unless they highlighted him and his character and he found the perfect outlet for his ego with JJ and his movies, If I was made out to be the strand that holds the galaxy together I believe I would indorse it as well.


 


I am not a JJ hater. As a lifelong Star Trek fan even I can admit the movie had action and adventure which sells movies. Had JJ called these movies by another name? Anything but Star Trek I would've agreed they were ok, even great movies. But if you are going lay to claim to a icon like Star Trek you must respect the fans and the characters all the while trying to connect to new fans. JJ found new fans but spit in the faces of the old fan base. It comes across that he wants to promote himself by trying to add his name to a franchise that has extremely loyal fans but is too good to have to learn what has made them the strongest fan base in history. Star Trek fans are not just into action but there is a history and story behind every character, ship, even action that is taken. JJ freely admits to not being a fan and it shows. He knows nothing of the fans or story. Star Trek has never been just a sci-fi series or movie, every character; every story has a back story that weaves them together. JJ has proven to be a good action director but lousy at understanding the fan base. If you were not a fan before then I can understand why the things that bug lifelong fans would not bother you.


 


To JJ I say thank you for reminding the studios that Star Trek is still a money maker. The studios have underestimated ST from the original pilot... but PLEASE let someone else work with you that knows and loves Star Trek. Give the movies action and special effects to draw in new fans, but do not be a fool by driving a wedge into those who have loved Star Trek and kept the franchise alive by putting our money into Movies, books VHS, DVDs and Blu Rays.


 


For me it wasn't the big things that were a problem. Yes the NCC-1701 nacelles looked wrong but that has more to me loving the original and did not see a benefit in changing the shape. How and when Pike gets hurt, Kirk becomes Capt is all good. I can follow the fact that facing this mystery ship that was so powerful that an organization would of went into overdrive to make bigger more powerful weapons. But the ship Kirk's dad commanded was hugely larger than the original TOS flagship NCC-1701 and that was before the time change, which was ignorance on JJ's part. Was there love interest on the Enterprise? Yes, but never Spock and Uhura and what happen to change that? It was Scotty and Uhura, Spock and Nurse Chapel, Kirk and everyone although he was very fond of Rand. The story was not benefited by these changes. A JJ Star Trek fan who admitted to not liking Star trek before said "they made Khan, British and pretty much nothing like his original Latin self" Well us original fans feel that way about most of the characters. But while we are on Khan, I totally agree, Ricardo Montalban's Khan had depth, smarts, a superior looking body. The new Khan made me want to offer him a sandwich. He had no reason to be Kirks enemy; they had no history as they had before. While Khan was meant to be the ultimate villain, the ultimate man, the ultimate leader, this Khan came across as lame and anything but superior in any way. He was a eugenics runt (maybe that is why he had anger issues?). And yes, what happen when the time line changed made a man who was created hundreds of years before suddenly change his nationality? Is there a shortage of well defined Latino actors in Hollywood that JJ was forced to settle for a British weenie boy? Same goes for Dr Marcus. I guess the timeline change made her change her nationality as well. Seems there is also a shortage if blonde American women in Hollywood as well. There were major characters missing from the TOS that should've been there. Where was Lt. Cmdr. Gary Mitchell, Dr. Philip Boyce who was Capt Pikes Chief Medical Dr.,  then Dr. Mark Piper who was Kirks first Chief Medical Dr and who was Dr. Puri? Then we have others that shouldn't have been there (sorry Chekov but a time change would not of made you older).


 


I loved the inside of the ship (minus the view screen and McDonald’s waterslide) It looked like a real workable ship. With catwalks and reactors. The shuttle bay was well thought out. In a ship if this new larger size there would be more than 2 shuttle pods. The bridge felt overdone but I could live with that.


 


In my opinion, if JJ wanted to throw out the Gene's book, have more battles, more action, draw in a new crowd and bring the loyal fan base running to praise it, he should have not messed with the timeline, he should of messed with the universe!! If you have not got there yet in your Star Trek journey, watch Mirror Mirror of TOS, "Crossover" "Through the Looking Glass" "Shattered Mirror" "Resurrection" "The Emperor's New Cloak" of DS9, In a Mirror, Darkly: Part 1 &2 of Enterprise and read the book Star trek Next Generation Dark Mirror. Little is known of the Mirror universe and yet it is extremely popular with fans. He could've done whatever he wanted and I doubt he would of had near as many complaint. (lets be honest, someone will always complain)


 


Did I spend my money to see JJ's movies, absolutely. I had great hopes for the first and then hoped he would of listened to the fans for the second...I was wrong.. Will I buy them for my personal collection...most likely, though they will not sit with the rest of my Star Trek collection. They will find a place next to other good Sci-fi movies like Planet of the Apes, 2001 Space Odyssey, and Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy. If they do get put near Star Trek you can be sure that Galaxy Quest, (which was more true to Star Trek even if it was making fun f it somewhat) will be between the real Star Trek Movies and JJs Action packed, well made Sci-fi generic movie.


 


 


LOL if you made it this far congratulation. I guess had a lot to say!!


To boldly go.....

willowtree

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1137

Report this Jun. 28 2013, 10:22 am

that was nicely written


 


but since you said less than positive things about the movie be prepared for people to flip out on you. Most of the people who liked he movie have a very hard time wih anyone who didn't. 

bunkey

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POSTS: 686

Report this Jun. 28 2013, 11:45 am

I second Willowtree.  People get VERY nasty. Take it from me.

willowtree

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POSTS: 1137

Report this Jun. 28 2013, 12:35 pm

for the most part I agree with David. I didn't really care for the movie, but I suppose if it had a different title without the words Star Trek in it, it might have seemed better to me. Though I couldn't stand the lense flares and the horrible camera motion that made me physically ill.


Overall my opinion on these movies is that they're the typical summer blockbuster, "look at all the stuff blowing up" kind of movie. They typically do very well and make a lot of money and people realy like them. They're the kind of movies where you can sit back and not really think too hard and eat your popcorn and look at the pretty explosions. Not that there's anything wrong with that kind of movie, I've seen and enjoyed many of these kinds of movies.


I just don't feel that is what Star Trek should have been turned into. that's my opinion. I know many people disagree, and that's cool too.

bunkey

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POSTS: 686

Report this Jun. 28 2013, 1:21 pm

Many feel the same way about Man of Steel. Good superhero movie, not a good Superman movie.


 


This article pretty much sums up my feelings much better than I could.


 


http://badassdigest.com/2013/06/27/where-have-all-the-heroes-gone

JoCat

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POSTS: 156

Report this Jun. 28 2013, 7:52 pm

I am a long time Star Trek fan. I've especially enjoyed the TNG and Voyager TV series.And I've liked some of the TOS TV episodes and their movies.  I also have seen both Star Trek 2009 and Star Trek In the Darkness movies and ENJOYED them very much. They are telling the Star Trek story in a different way (through the alternate reality idea) and I think they are doing very, very well. I really don't understand all the negativity that is going on with this. They very creatively came up with a way to preserve the orignal Star Trek story as we know it and then use very loved and very  familiar characters to create brand new stories for us all to enjoy.  When nothing was happening, J.J. came up with a way to put new life into Star Trek. And he has put in alot of work, alot of energy, and alot of resources into this. These 2 movies are not just all about action and special effects; there is a definite storyline taking place. And if it hadn't been for J.J. we would still have no new Star Trek movies to even talk about right now.


 

chator56

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POSTS: 498

Report this Jun. 28 2013, 8:27 pm

Bunkey,


Thanks for the link to that article, pretty interesting. This humanizing of heroes to make them more relatable by exposing their flaws, or making them flawed need not cut their greatness, but perhaps is attempted to magnify it by contrast. Nevertheless, many recent films seem to fail in the attempt, Kirk in both Abrams' Trek films, Spiderman in the film reboot are two examples. I don't think Superman qualifies in MOS. The character begins his journey into heroism at an early age, as a young boy saving a school bus of kids, I don't really see the character grow-he doubts whether to turn himself in, he's more of a relucant hero than anything else. Only when circumstances force it, does Clark Kent become Superman, this isn't a character acting out of moral code, but due to circumstance, which diminishes his heroism.

davidjskipper

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 9

Report this Jun. 29 2013, 7:02 am

Thank you, Willowtree and Bunkey, for the kind words.


I knew going in that there would be comments that were negative and possibly even hateful. So what, I am not the type to get offended if someone disagrees. In fact, if it is done intelligently and not fueled by emotion, i really enjoy a good debate.


Willow tree, you and I see these movies very much in the same light I think. They were made for the general public to have s movie to spend money on send JJ did a great job accomplishing that goal. However I will actually say I enjoyed the movies over all…once I quit thinking as them as a Star Trek movie.


Jocat, let me first thank you for being respectful an polite in your comments. If you have read many responses on this subject you know many become quite hostile. You would think they owed stock in the movies or perhaps had family in the film. I tried very hard to look objectively at this subject myself. I have tried to comment on other post but the subject is already so heated that a calm voice is not just heard or wanted. As far as my replies to your comments, please try and not take offence and remember, this is just my opinion. I always love talking to another long time Star Trek fan. I am not sure of your age but by your comment I take it you were born in the 80s of early 90s. I say this because you feel a long time fan is one who was watched TNG.


 Let me first explain what I mean when I say I am a long time fan. I have never been to a Star trek convention, I do not own a pair of Vulcan ears, and I do not own a Bat’leth (I do want one though!). My Grandmother loved Star Trek as well as all Sci-Fi films and non gory horror films. This meant through the 70s and 80s, EVERY NIGHT without fail we watched TOS after the news at 10:30. We were poor so I saw only a handful of movies growing up, they were Star Trek. She refused to watch any previews before we saw every movie at the theater so they would be a surprise and more exciting. We had a party for the pilot of TNG (to be honest none of us liked it but it did get better especially season 2 and on. I now own every film, series, and extra I have found to exist with the exception of coarse of ITD because it is not available yet, and the animated series which I desperately want but have not been able to find one when I had the money. After public school truly failed me so I could not read after graduation. It was Peter David’s books that I learned to read with. (I know own near every book he has written. My wife bought me every comic book ever written on CDR for an anniversary present and I was given by other friends a Kazon Battleship model and one of Star Trek V NCC-1701 A with a Galileo shuttle.


 A fan which knows TNG, DS9 Voyager and Enterprise I can easily see being able to appreciate JJ’s films as a member of the family. But you said “They are telling the Star Trek story in a different way (through the alternate reality idea) and I think they are doing very, very well. I really don't understand all the negativity that is going on with this. “Let me be clear, as a summer flick I too enjoyed these movies, in fact I own the 2009 movie on Blu-ray. Yes they are telling a story in a different light. This was done to bring in new movie spenders and was successful. I think I could have bought into the alternate timeline idea myself IF there had not been so many mistakes before this timeline change was to have begun. (I suppose we could go by the idea that there was another event not mentioned in the films that had already changed time but I think that is a stretch to justify the changes.) ST fans know every detail of Star Trek Facts and JJ ruined most of his credibility and main Target audience when he said “I had friends who were huge fans of Star Trek and I don't know if I was smart enough to get it, or patient enough. What I loved about Star Wars (1977) was the visceral energy of it, the clarity of it, the kind of innocence and big heart of it. Star Trek always felt a little bit more sophisticated and philosophical, debating moral dilemmas and things that were theoretically interesting, but for some reason I couldn't get on board…… Looking back on my childhood, I have a list of things that are massively important to me. Without question, 'Star Wars' was on the list, and 'Star Trek' was not.” It said we have a person who does not love Star Trek like we do, does not understand it like we do and will more then likely just use it as a stepping stone to do a project he actually cares for and wants to do…It seems to of worked for him.


They very creatively came up with a way to preserve the orignal Star Trek story as we know it and then use very loved and very  familiar characters to create brand new stories for us all to enjoy.  When nothing was happening, J.J. came up with a way to put new life into Star Trek “His way was creative, but he by no means preserve the original Star Trek story as we know it because changed the very essence of that story. I am sorry but what I saw agrees with the words you used but in a different meaning. “Then used and very familiar characters to create brand new stories for us all to enjoy” I agree. I used them. He knew there was a fan base that loved these characters and since (based from his own quote), he did not care for and he was not smart enough to keep up with so he had to remake them into characters he could follow. They are NOT the loved and familiar characters we know from TOS


And he has put in alot of work, alot of energy, and alot of resources into this. These 2 movies are not just all about action and special effects; there is a definite storyline taking place”. Agreed, He put forth a lot of effort and obviously has a plot in mind. I continue to hope it will someday return us to a recognizable Star Trek. I appreciate that he gave it his best, but a fish may want to fly through the clouds and expend a lot of effort, trying to do that but it just does not have the ability


Your saddest statement for me “And if it hadn't been for J.J. we would still have no new Star Trek movies to even talk about right now”  You are correct. Love it or hate it, these two movies are out there. Some will down them, others praise them. Some of us will never see them as a true Star Trek movie, but we are talking about them, they made money so that gives hope that others will pick up the flag


As a life long fan, let me list my likes and hates


1.    The actors chosen for Spock and Bones are dead ringers. Bones even has the lines down, the feeling of the character down. The Spock character is not phenomenal as Spock but I believe he does as well as we have the right to ask for especially when he has the looks down pretty well


2.    I know many fans dislikes the Klingons looks, and I too bulked at first but with the shame in which they lost the true looks due to the eugenic experiments, it is not a far fetched idea they might of wore mask to appear more fearsome in battle. As for the looks of them when the mask was removed, I think Gene would have approved. He constantly made comments he wanted the klingons more like they were in TNG but technology prevented it. Enterprise gave a great answer why they did not in TOS. But look at the Motion Picture. The only movie written by Gene. The Klingons look almost exactly as the ones JJ had. In my opinion, good job JJ


3.    Only the animated series goes into the time of Spocks adolescence, seems someone on JJ’s crew watched that because that scene was dead on correct


4.    "You know your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 “Where did Abrams get this?  The Flagship of the fleet before Nero would change the universe was going to be was the NCC 1701. At 300 meters (980 ft), and it had a capacity of 100 crew, but the Kelvin that this new father died on was an Einstein class and considered a scout ship. Are we to believe a scout ship would be 8X larger then a flag ship of the fleet?


5.    AS mentioned before, the change in the nationalities of both Dr. Marcus and Khan is just stupid.


 


 


6.    Khan a weenie boy that is not shown to have the eugenic intelligent, strength, or leadership to be the General Khan of the eugenics wars.


7.    Oh and yes I did say “Kirks new father died on was an Einstein class” that is because Kirks of the original series (the one we know and love) Father was Colonel Benjamin Kirk listed as was a Human male and father-figure to the renowned James T. Kirk. Kirk was a hero of a military conflict known as the Klingon Repulsion. When James was twelve years old, Benjamin was awarded the posthumous Starfleet decoration, the Supreme Medal of Honor, and an acceptance letter from Commander Alden McWilliams confirmed Jim Kirk's honorary appointment to UFPSpaceAcademy. (TOS comic: "The Enterprise Logs, Volume 1")
Perhaps Colonel Benjamin Kirk is a relative of George Kirk Sr. and Kirks mom come clean at some point in the TOS universe that she was sleeping around but in JJs felt it best that Jim Kirk saw his family as perfect and his Umm “father” as the hero that saved his life. After all, not much left for a paternity test,


8.    The whole love crap between Spock and Uhura I see as a final slap in the face. No evidence is there that there was ever an interest. Read my first post and you will see the ones that were obvious but JJ mentioned in an interview that it was fun to do that. He got a chuckle at being disrespectful to something that means a lot to many fans


9.    In the end, he made Spock an outcast that has mommy issues only to loose her, and Kirk, an emotional orphan that is only happy pickig fights, getting drunk and can only control these urges by bosing everyone around…. Kirk and Spock are such powerful heroic figures in pop culture that have stood the test of time for nearly 50 years and he is reintroducing a modern movie-going audience to those characters, why turn them both into extremely damaged orphaned individuals who bear so little similarity, except physically, to the original heroes that they're derived from? Why would you do that? They're not even Kirk and Spock


To me it seems JJ thinks that he has the rights and ability to rewrite and make better a story line and characters that he admitted to no being smart enough to understand and make them better. He has ultimately said they all need to be dumbed down because if he is not smart enough to understand Star Trek then no one else can either.


 


 


Jocat; please do not think I am picking on you. But you said you do not understand the negativity. This is why for many of us. They replaced our heroes with fakes. I have never been as excited anticipating a new movie coming out as I was the 2009 Star Trek, and then left felling like The show and characters that were so much apart of my life, my family time, play time with my siblings, were finally gone. JJ did not reboot or breath life into Star Trek, he drove in the final nail into its coffin. Let’s hope that someone who cares for the show and fan picks up the torch.


To boldly go.....

shaun.black.5895

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POSTS: 12

Report this Jun. 29 2013, 3:03 pm

Well said David. 


If people are mad because real fans are pointing out the obvious reasons this is not Star Trek, then they are posers if you ask me.  Probably their first Star Trek experiance, which is a sad indroduction if there ever was one.


I say to those people, do yourself a favor and watch every episode from every series countless times over, and then come and talk to me.  Because only then will you be able to understand the problems (obvious problems to seasoned fans.)

dboyman

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POSTS: 7

Report this Jun. 29 2013, 8:41 pm

I understand how you feel davidjskipper


 I think what the real problem is that JJ is an admitted Star Wars Fan Boy who understands nothing about what Trek was really about, which is the drama, as well as the lessons about humantity, and how it thing reflect who we are, etc.  Basically Trek is preachy 1st action 2nd. I Think JJ wants to avoid all that. Personally for the next movie get rid of JJ and the current writers, then replace with those who are willing to bring the "true spirit of trek" into the new universe.


 About all the discrepancies over this "alternate time line". What if this WAS NOT an alternate time line created by Nero but an completely alternate universe like the mirror universe? Similar but different. Then we can have a White Khan, Spock dating Uhura, Klingons in masks, a British Carol Marcus, etc. Basically the red matter black Hole was a portal which brought Nero and Spock Prime into a different universe. Then I can think of JJ Reboot verse as "Bizarro Trek". Would be interested if something like this popped up in the 3rd movie...

MCB

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POSTS: 23

Report this Jun. 30 2013, 12:07 am

The problem is that there are 728 episodes and 10 films of all Star Trek.  Watching one episode a day would take over 2 years.  Nobody has that kind of patience anymore.  So those who did not know Star Trek before the 2 JJ things may think that those films have something to do with Star Trek, and they may not be interested in learning otherwise by watching the real Star Trek.  There big loss. 

wickedclyde

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POSTS: 2

Report this Jun. 30 2013, 6:35 am

Being only a teenager, I had no knowledge of Star Trek. I even grew up in a house of Star Wars. But thanks to JJ Abrams' Star Trek movie, I've been really interested in the Star Trek franchise. So, I went and watched ST: TOS. After a few episodes, I found that JJ Abrams ruined the name of Star Trek. I realized that his film had nothing to do with what Star Trek really is: exploring new places and learning something along the way. I saw it as being patterned to Star Wars: full of action and high-tech weaponry and space ships, not like TOS, which aims to find new planets and life forms.


When I heard that JJ would make another ST movie, ST Into Darkness, I went and skipped to watching Space Seed (since I read in most articles that it is the first feature of Khan Noonien Singh, the main antagonist in STID), and eventually, ST II: The Wrath of Khan. I was so pleased with WOK that I watched STID, hoping that it would be good. To my dismay, it was nothing like WOK. Even Khan is not Khan. JJ should just have left him as John Harrison, not to ruin Khan's awesome and mighty reputation. 


In conclusion, JJ Abrams may have revived Star Trek and brought in new fans, but he lost the virtues of Star Trek in the process. I hope new fans like me would go and and watch the TV Series and discover true Star Trek fandom. I am currently watching Star Trek: The Next Generation and I'm really loving it, but without TOS, I never be fully part of the great family of Trekkies. 


Live long and prosper, Trekkers, live long and prosper! \\//


 


-- Clyde, out. =A=

davidjskipper

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POSTS: 9

Report this Jun. 30 2013, 9:41 am

Welcome to the Star Trek family. Your watching TOS was the logical course of action I am a fan of both Star Wars and Star Trek but Star Trek far out weighs Star Wars. In your quest of Star Trek here are a few trivia pointers to help. The "Cage" was Rodenberrys dream So you can learn much from it. The Animated series was his favorite season due to the no bounds that he had with the make up problems. A star charetor had three arsm!! The Motion Picture is the only movie Gene Wrote and it had started out to be a new series and was later the format for TNG. But nothing tells of what Star Trek was meant to be then Gene himself. Watch this short interview.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x64a11_the-cage-star-trek-original-pilot_shortfilms#.UdBdBju1Efc


To boldly go.....

davidjskipper

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 9

Report this Jun. 30 2013, 9:57 am

"The problem is that there are 728 episodes and 10 films of all Star Trek.  Watching one episode a day would take over 2 years.  Nobody has that kind of patience anymore"


 


So true for non fans. My wife spoiled me or one aniversary. I got all the movies on Blue Ray, the entire TNG series and first season of TNG on DVD, A spock "Check yourself before you Wreck yourself"  and all the Star trek comics on CD-rom and then was mad when I was done in 2 1/2 weeks....course being home bound stuck in bed does have its advantages!! 

JJ could of at least bought the Fan Favorite DVD collections though 


To boldly go.....

jmoroni78

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 10

Report this Jun. 30 2013, 10:30 am

David dude never have I agreed so much with one person about a movie. Your rant is almost a mirror image of my FB rant after watching the latest JJ assault on Star Trek especially the love connections. You have given a new insight though. The fact that JJ is a SW fan boy says it all. He has done what he did on purpose out of complete disrespect for our beloved Star Trek. I know many SW fan boys that have nothing but disregard for Star Trek. So now I understand better that what was done was done to change Star Trek into a new SW series Minus the force(for now I can see Spock developing some force like powers to add salt to injury).

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