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Should Tuvok have been first officer?

chator56

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Report this Jun. 24 2013, 2:07 pm

I didn't really care much for Chakotay on VOYAGER, he was bland. I didn't really buy into the Janeway/Chakotay relationship. If Janeway had made Tuvok first officer, I think it would have been a more interesting show, more like TOS. I think Security might have been a better role for the hot-headed Chakotay. I don't think command suited him at all. He didn't really exhibit any leadership qualities.

bunkey

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Report this Jun. 24 2013, 3:07 pm

Did Tuvok want to be 1st officer? Did he show command abilities? Was he on a command track? Plus Chakotay being 1st officer was necessary to unite the Maquis and Starfleet crew peacefully.  They needed to put the Maquis commander in a command position to assure the Maquis they'd be treated fairly. Without Chakotay in that position, there would have been attempts to take over the ship.  

willowtree

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Report this Jun. 25 2013, 5:40 am

Quote: bunkey @ Jun. 24 2013, 3:07 pm

>

>Did Tuvok want to be 1st officer? Did he show command abilities? Was he on a command track? Plus Chakotay being 1st officer was necessary to unite the Maquis and Starfleet crew peacefully.  They needed to put the Maquis commander in a command position to assure the Maquis they'd be treated fairly. Without Chakotay in that position, there would have been attempts to take over the ship.  

>


Exactly! Tuvok was not in a command track, though he was 2nd officer. Chakotay had also been a Starfleet officer for many years before he became a Maquis and during his time with the Maquis he was a captain. So he has a good deal of experience, including command experience. And he also served as a symbol of the uniting of the two crews. I don't think there would have been attempts to take over the ship wthout him in that position, but I do think there would have been a much harder time for the two crews to integrate without him in that position


 


and I also didn't like Chakotay that much either (and Robert Beltran is not someone I like either)

bunkey

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Report this Jun. 25 2013, 6:47 am

I may be mistaken, but didn't Chakotay have to talk the Maquis out of a mutiny early in the show?


Yeah I'm not a Chakotay fan either but his First Officer role was necessary.  Not everyone wants to be First Officer or Captain.  Being in charge isn't always a goal. I'm really good at my job but when my office is looking for team leaders or something, I'm always yelling "NOT IT!" Being the second in command means that when they Captain's away, every single life on the ship is in your hands.  Not everyone wants that.

willowtree

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Report this Jun. 25 2013, 8:56 am

the only mention of a mutiny was a holodeck program

Utopia Planetia

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Report this Jun. 25 2013, 12:26 pm

First officer?


He should've been captain!

corndogs

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Report this Jun. 25 2013, 1:02 pm

Tuvok would have made an excellent First officer.  But wouldn't some fans say that a vulcan had already been first officer in TOS, and therefore Voyager would lack creativity??

chator56

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Report this Jun. 25 2013, 5:03 pm

I thought throughout the show Tuvok gave alot better advice and counsel to Janeway than Chakotay. Even in the pilot, he cautioned her against destroying the array, saying it violated the Prime Directive to try to help the Ocampa, and I loved the scene in the pilot where Tuvok tells Janeway she needs rest. Maybe making Chakotay first officer was a smart strategic political move to pacify the Marquis, but it was also unfair to the rest of the crew who had to work their way up the ranks, who had to graduate the Academy, and Janeway just gives them a free pass.

bunkey

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Report this Jun. 26 2013, 5:06 am

Chakotay also graduated the Academy and served in Starfleet.  And keep in mind all the ranks the Maquis were provisional. Provisional means "arranged or existing for the present, possibly to be changed later". Janeway made the decision because they were presently stuck and they had one mission. To get home. It's not as if Chakotay would have been up for promotion at any time or would have been offered his own command over a non Maquis officer. They were the only Starfleet ship in the Delta Quadrant. You're arguing it's unfair as if the Maquis' temporary ranks were blocking Starfleet career advancement or something.  It's not like a Maquis would be promtoted to some choice assignment over a Starfleet officer. There was no other assignment. Where were they going to advance to? Everyone was essentially stalled to some degree. You make do with what you have.  You can't apply normal Starfleet advancement paces to Voyager.


I'm sure that once they returned, every actual Starfleet officer was given the advancement and reward they deserved and Maquis were given the oppourtunity to continue on a career path at a normal pace (with their seven years of service under consideration as well).

willowtree

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Report this Jun. 26 2013, 10:30 am

Quote: chator56 @ Jun. 25 2013, 5:03 pm

>

>I thought throughout the show Tuvok gave alot better advice and counsel to Janeway than Chakotay. Even in the pilot, he cautioned her against destroying the array, saying it violated the Prime Directive to try to help the Ocampa, and I loved the scene in the pilot where Tuvok tells Janeway she needs rest. Maybe making Chakotay first officer was a smart strategic political move to pacify the Marquis, but it was also unfair to the rest of the crew who had to work their way up the ranks, who had to graduate the Academy, and Janeway just gives them a free pass.

>


Tuvok was also a close friend of Janeway, they had known each other for many years before Voyager


 


I don't think the maquis got a free pass. Take B'Elanna for example. She did go to the academy for two years, but didn't graduate. Yes technically it wasn't fair to make her chief engineer over someone who graduated and worked teir way up, but he skills were the best and in Voyager's situation that was more important.

chator56

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Report this Jun. 26 2013, 11:22 am

IMO, giving the Marquis positions of power and influence on the ship doesn't guarantee they won't attempt to abuse those positions and mutiny. With VOYAGER cut off from the Federation I guess there was less of an incentive to follow protocol, after all who are they going to answer to if they don't? Janeway is the ultimate authority on the ship. She cut the Marquis crew some slack at the risk of upsetting her crew, and placing her ship in the hands of rebels that have no respect for the Federation. It was a bold and risky move, but probably helped prevent the Marquis from feeling alienated and repressed on the ship. Nevertheless, this was one of the many decisions Janeway made that I disagreed with.

willowtree

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Report this Jun. 26 2013, 11:57 am

I don't think you really understand the maquis. They're not against the federation, they're just against a specific treaty. They have respect for the federation, they don't attack federation ships. Did you see the episode Dreadnought? B'Elanna programmed the missile to warn federations ships.


I don't think there was anything bold or risky about integrating the two crews. Once again, the maquis were NOT anti federation. Many of them came from the federation. In the case of Voyager everyone knew they had to work together to keep the ship running and to get home. What would be the benefit of the maquit to have a mutiny or to go against Janeway? Either way they're still stuck in the delta quadrant.


Why would being cut off from the federation be an incentive to start acting differently?

bunkey

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Report this Jun. 26 2013, 1:07 pm

I'd also like to know what the alternative would have been? Locking the Maquis in the brig for 7 years? Or losing manpower by having dead weight passengers that contribute nothing to the ship or the mission?

chator56

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Report this Jun. 26 2013, 1:36 pm

Bunkey,


That depends on the reason why Tuvok had infiltrated the Marquis. If it was just for intelligence gathering on Marquis activity and nothing more than no reason to put them in the brig. If, however, they were attempting to gather evidence to prove some type of illegal activity, then that's a different story. I wish VOYAGER had given more backstory on this. All we know is Tuvok was planted and Janeway went after the Marquis to fetch him after he failed to report in. When Tuvok reveals himself aboard VOYAGER to be a plant, Chakotay asks, "Was it your plan to deliver us into their waiting hands, Vulcan?" Tuvok replies, "Yes, that is correct." Maybe they had committed some crimes. If so, they should have been placed in the brig, pending charges and a formal hearing.

bunkey

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POSTS: 686

Report this Jun. 26 2013, 2:12 pm

Well holding the Maquis for 7 years would probably break Federation law in itself.  The UFP charter is based on the United Nations and holding someone for 7 years without a trial is just the kind of problem we have with Guantanamo Bay today. It would violate their rights as Federation citizens.  They'd probably have to have a civil trial, not court martials.  Janeway isn't a civilian judge so she couldn't preside over it. So again, are you going to hold capable beings for 7 years without a trial? That would mean supporting them with supplies and leaving Voyager very short handed. That would put the crew at a greater risk as opposed to having a larger compliment of capable crew members that can contribute to the mission to get the hell home.


I'm not a huge Janeway fan either, but in this case I support her decision.  She was in a desperate situation and needed to maintain a functional crew to accomplish her number one goal. Get home. She did the right thing and obviously Starfleet agreed because she was promoted to Vice Admiral

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