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Kirk or Picard

kevin.nelson.1291

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 26

Report this Jun. 26 2013, 11:50 pm

Quote: bunkey @ Jun. 26 2013, 11:06 pm

Quote: kevin.nelson.1291 @ Jun. 26 2013, 12:57 pm

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>I never saw any real contest; Picard was refined and intelligent; Kirk was impulsive and got dozens (hundreds? I didn't keep count) of "security officers" killed. Kirk was more entertaining, but Picard made a better captain, and a better show. I do agree with earlier statements that each man fit the era he lived in. Objectively, I actually think Sisko was better than Kirk; he managed to walk the line between Kirk and Picard's styles of command. 

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Picard got quite a few crew members killed himself through meetings with the Borg alone. If you add in First Contact, that's a LOT of Starfleet officers.  Never mind other people who died in other ways. What was the body count at Wolf 359? Kirk never got anyone killed through negligence. Neither did Picard for that matter. When you're dealing with the types of aliens both captains have encountered, people are gonna die.  "Risk is part of the game if you want to sit in that chair."


Fair point considering the death Picard was connected to. But while deaths on Picard's watch seemed incidental, the people who died serving under Kirk suffered from a more fundamental problem. Namely, that his "cowboy diplomacy" style trickled down, resulting in a philosophy of drawing phasers before asking questions. Though his tactics worked for him personally, Kirk's actions set a poor example for the rest of the crew, which does not make him inept per se, but at the very least misguided as a leader.

bunkey

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POSTS: 686

Report this Jun. 27 2013, 3:12 am

Wholly disagree. Can't disagree MORE. No one "drew phasers before asking questions". When did that happen? Please state examples by naming episodes.  

kevin.nelson.1291

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 26

Report this Jun. 28 2013, 12:14 am

Quote: bunkey @ Jun. 27 2013, 3:12 am

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>Wholly disagree. Can't disagree MORE. No one "drew phasers before asking questions". When did that happen? Please state examples by naming episodes.  

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1. Friday's child- Redshirt draws phaser upon seeing a Klingon, immediately killed by natives.


2. The changeling- Aimlessly firing phasers at Nomad only to be instantly killed.


3. Obsession- This one is DEFINITELY Kirk's fault. In a futile and untimately irrelevant attempt to kill his nemesis, he sends men into a hopeless situation where nothing could have saved them.


4. The Devil in the dark- Redshirt has phaser out, discovers silicon lifeform, and then does nothing. This seems to be a poor plan. No ideas for containment, or at the very least killing that are more effective than phasers, which had already been established as ineffective?


The death of all these people signifies to me that Kirk was not an effective, or ingenious captain, and that in order to discover solutions to his problems, a few crewmen had to die to give Spock or McCoy or Scotty (and rarely Kirk) an idea of how to proceed. Picard never had a problem of this nature or magnitude and was able to effectively lead without getting people killed. Sure people died on his watch; sometimes, it was even his fault. But it was not a matter of routine, which to me answers the initial question on the better Starfleet Captain.

bunkey

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POSTS: 686

Report this Jun. 28 2013, 12:21 pm

Uhm in Q Who 18 people die. That's just one example.  How many crewmen died in First Contact? Because Picard was playing Ahab?  I think if you do research the body count is about the same if not higher for TNG.

willowtree

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POSTS: 1137

Report this Jun. 28 2013, 12:44 pm

I don't get why they're compared. They're so different, they dealt with different challenges in different times with different rules. Place Kirk in Picard's chair and vice versa and they might have both been awful.


I don't get why any of the captains are compared honestly. they all faced unique situations and challenges and who's to say how anoher captain would have handled the same situation. How would Sisco deal with being stranded in the Delta Quadrant,  how would Picard deal with being on a station and fighting he Dominion?

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