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Comparing Khans

chator56

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POSTS: 498

Report this Jun. 09 2013, 5:13 pm

bunkey

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Report this Jun. 10 2013, 11:21 am

I was very happy to see the race change acknolweged and the author admitting that he didn't buy the race change at all.  I didn't expect that on this site. I figured it wpuldl be ignored.  Kudos.

lynny

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POSTS: 11

Report this Jun. 10 2013, 4:08 pm

I am not as kind as the author.  Benedict Cumberbatch's Khan does not come close to being the mesmerizing villian as portrayed by Ricardo Montalban.  There was no hypnotic attraction to the character. Nothing to make a female officer leave the Enterprise and follow him anywhere.  Instead we got a boring, unexciting and emotionless robot.  Oh, I still like the new reality but they dropped the warp core on this villian being amazing.

Morosk

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POSTS: 25

Report this Jun. 10 2013, 4:47 pm

You are beeing a bit unfair..it was impossible to be the same khan you know...


yet he was a very good Vilain to the film and the essencial of the "old" khan was there


 


 

vulcanmartha

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Report this Jun. 10 2013, 8:00 pm

Richardo did an awesome Khan but Benedict is very very convincing. Don't sell Benedict short, he's an awesome actor.  


Not only a Star Trek Fan but a Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Hobbit, Sherlock, and Big Bang Theory fan *AKA* Well Rounded Nerd. ~ MarthaLPittman.blogspot.com ~

bunkey

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Report this Jun. 11 2013, 10:50 am

Ricardo Montalban at 60 in TWOK was more charismatic and charming than Cumberbatch on his best day. And Montalban had panty peeling sex appeal.  Cumberbatch as a genetic "Superman" looks like a Pinterest fail.

OtakuJo

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POSTS: 16362

Report this Jun. 12 2013, 2:32 am

Quote: bunkey @ Jun. 11 2013, 10:50 am

>

>Ricardo Montalban at 60 in TWOK was more charismatic and charming than Cumberbatch on his best day.

>


Can't possibly agree with that. Taking "Khan" out of the equation for the moment, Cumberbatch was still a very good villain (I would say one of the better villains of Star Trek -- certainly of the Star Trek films.)


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

bunkey

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Report this Jun. 12 2013, 4:18 am

Personally, I feel Cumberbatch is about as intimidating as a wet piece of bologna. He's weird looking, and not in a scary way.  He looks like what happens when cousins have babies.  His performance, as a stand alone thing, was unimaginative and cliche.  British villain wearing all black that speaks eloquently...ho hum.  And he had no sex appeal IMO. Maybe he has a rabid fanbase that find him attractive, but he was not charismatic. He didn't strike me as a world leader, someone who could actually have conquered the world.  he was just a super villain.

Icarus14

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Report this Jun. 12 2013, 8:08 am

I personaly felt that Cumberbatch's new Khan as just as good as Montalban's. Both Khans exhibited traits that I like. But overall I feel that Cumberbatch's Khan received more of the stagelight and his motives were explained a bit better, instead of simply being obsessed with revenge. I also liked how his primary concern was for his people. We see this thought pattern explored slightly in TWOK, but it seemed that that Khan cared less for his people and more for his own planning. Both Khans are extremely clever, but IMO I felt that the new Khan expressed more intelligence, or at least more control over his anger, than the original Khan. While Cumberbatch's Khan clearly committed horrible atrocities, I could understand his motives, and while certainly not condone them, I felt pity for Khan. The other thing that stood out to me is that the new Khan gave his blood to save the little girl. Yes, it was with the agreement that her father would destroy the archives, but he could have coerced anyone into doing that (albeit with the chance they could defect). I thought it was an interesting touch on the new Khan's character, and in my opinion demonstrated how he understood the need to do anything for family.


 


Now what I liked about the original Khan. First off, he seemed to have the ability to love others, not just his crew (the woman's name escapes me, but she was the one who helped Khan in Space Seed and later became mentioned as his wife in TWOK). The new Khan, while he might have the capability to fall in love with someone who is not part of his crew, I don't think would do a very good job at it (not from an acting standpoint, but just the character in general and how it has been formed). That's what I liked about Montalban's Khan. His affection for the young woman eventually lead to his demise (in Space Seed that is, and partly in TWOK because he wanted revenge). This added an element to his character that I thought was interesting.   


 


Overall both actors did a very well deserved "Great Job!" but if I had to pick my favorite I think it would probably be the new Khan. Perhaps it is because I felt he was more dangerous than the original. In Space Seed, Khan was taken out with a smallish pipe. For a man who has been genetically engineered and has (quote) "5 times Kirk's strength", I would have expected maybe just a little more of a fight. For the longest time I could never undestand why people would always argue that Khan was one of the most terrible villains the Enterprise ever encountered. I think part of this goes back to the fact that Montalban's Khan was halted by a pipe. Compared to the new Khan (who could resit the nerve pinch, mind meld, and had to be beaten senseless by a strong Vulcan, Spock) I felt new Khan was stronger overall. I'm not trying to bash Montalban's Khan (both Khans I appreciate very much so) but in all I prefer the new Khan.


 


 


"Only one, Human captain, ever survived the Minbari fleet. He is behind me, you, are in front of me. If you value your lives, then be somewhere else." Delenn.

fireproof78

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POSTS: 342

Report this Jun. 12 2013, 9:21 am


While I understand that comparisons will be made, I really feel that the two Khans are different enough due to the way circumstances ended up in their lives.  New Khan was essentially manipulated by Section 31 in many ways that we don't even know about. Since we know that Marcus would be willing to do anything to prepare the Federation for war and then was willing to kill Khan with little thought, it seems safe to say that Marcus probably manipulated Khan in some pretty nasty ways.


I like new Khan because I do like Cumberbatch and find him to be an engaging character actor. I think that he has a cold, distant, remorseless, feel to him, like he is almost above everything that is occurring.  Until he comes across the man who holds his family hostage. Then we see the cracks in the veneer and the passion that could lead to the vengeance.


I personally was never a fan of TWOK Khan. Not for lack of respect for Montalban because I feel that Montalban is a superb actor. But, Khan was so single focused in TWOK that I found little to sympathize with in the character arc. He sounds really pretty spatting at Melville and Milton and the classics, but is not sympathetic. Instead, he is a villain who deserves what he gets in the end.


Someone else made this point, I think icarus14, that new Khan's motivations are more identifiable and closer to being a sympathetic character. While not condoning his actions (I could never condone manipulating a man with his daughter), I understood him a little bit better.


Both actors portray these characters in an excellent fashion, and so to compare the two is to diminish the work of one of them. I think that if they had to rehash Khan (I wish they didn't but they did ) they did it uniquely and with a different attitude towards the character.


 

OtakuJo

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Report this Jun. 12 2013, 10:53 pm

Quote: bunkey @ Jun. 12 2013, 4:18 am

>

>Personally, I feel Cumberbatch is about as intimidating as a wet piece of bologna. He's weird looking, and not in a scary way.  He looks like what happens when cousins have babies.  His performance, as a stand alone thing, was unimaginative and cliche.  British villain wearing all black that speaks eloquently...ho hum.  And he had no sex appeal IMO. Maybe he has a rabid fanbase that find him attractive, but he was not charismatic. He didn't strike me as a world leader, someone who could actually have conquered the world.  he was just a super villain.

>


Then our opinions differ. That's cool. I just can't agree with that assessment. I wouldn't characterise myself as one of the rabid fanbase.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

OtakuJo

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POSTS: 16362

Report this Jun. 12 2013, 10:55 pm

It's a shame we don't have Montalban with us any more to hear his opinion on Cumberbatch's performance. I think of all the possible opinions on the matter, his would probably have been the most interesting.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

unorthodox

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POSTS: 35

Report this Sep. 01 2013, 5:47 pm

Montalban was wayyyyyyy better.  Also, I didn't like how, when cumberbatch smiled he looked like Phlox.  Not sure if that was intentional and/or digitally done or if thats his real smile, but I didn't like it at all

rob39874

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POSTS: 142

Report this Sep. 02 2013, 12:46 am

Cumbernatch was not a good fit for Khan which is one of the reasons STID is one of the worst films and has stopped me from wanring to watch any films in this new universe in the future. Montalban was a better Khan and really think they should have keptthe name John Harrison and maybe say he was part of Khan eugenics crew. Would have made the film tolerable. but JJ dropped the ball with Into the Darkness 

OtakuJo

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Report this Sep. 06 2013, 2:52 am

Quote: rob39874 @ Sep. 02 2013, 12:46 am

>

>really think they should have keptthe name John Harrison and maybe say he was part of Khan eugenics crew.

>


I do agree with this. For the first half or so of the movie, while "Harrison" could have been an original character, the story was quite engaging. Then T.P.T.B. could have cast whomever they liked in the role, and there would have been significantly fewer objections.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

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