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He wasnt really Khan!!!

ScottRobot

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POSTS: 12

Report this May. 30 2013, 3:59 am

Something I find interesting to think about...
In Space Seed, they say Khan and his people are made up of a variety of nationalities.

In Voyager "Future's End" future technology is left in the past, creating the computer revolution in the late 90s. This suggests to me, a technological revolution at least postponed the genetic revolution that lead to the eugenic wars. This could easily have lead to a change in genetic material for these supermen and thier nationalities would all be mixed up. This assumes they were created together as a mix of all earth nationalities.

bunkey

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POSTS: 686

Report this May. 30 2013, 6:50 am

Quote: fireproof78 @ May. 29 2013, 7:23 pm

>First of all, he didn't say that white actors are better than colored actors. Nowhere did I see that in his statement.

>Secondly, as previously established, Khan is not confirmed as a Sikh. There are arguements for both sides within canon and I'm not convinced of one or the other. It gets filed under the "definite maybe" category.

>Finally, I think we can all agree that racism is bad. Seriously, people, why the all the personal attacks? oh wait:


You addressed everything but the part where they said Avery Brooks only got the part because he was black. Should I ignore such a comment and let it pass without speaking up?


Sarcasm is my native language.
JJ Abrams is not of the body.

bunkey

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Report this May. 30 2013, 6:54 am

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ May. 30 2013, 2:22 am

>I read at least 1 of those books, but I always felt that the idea that thgey were 2nd gen augments was contreadicted by Khanas dialog in the film.

>From the Dialog of TWoK

>KHAN: Captain! Captain! Save your strength. These people have sworn to live and die at my command two hundred years before you were born.


1-They were a mixed lot of first and second generation.


2-books don't always line up with canon, which is why for the most part they are not canon.  They do spawn interesting ideas, thoough.


3-200 before Terrell was born, Khan was floating in space. So if you're nitpicking, that line is an error in itself.


 


Sarcasm is my native language.
JJ Abrams is not of the body.

dhmac

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POSTS: 1

Report this May. 30 2013, 8:08 am

Well, it does seem peculiar that the original Khan was supposed to be a Sikh (that's why his name is Khan!) and the new guy is a white Brit. But anything's possible in this new universe, I guess.

fireproof78

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POSTS: 342

Report this May. 30 2013, 9:19 am

Quote: bunkey @ May. 30 2013, 6:50 am

Quote: fireproof78 @ May. 29 2013, 7:23 pm

>

>First of all, he didn't say that white actors are better than colored actors. Nowhere did I see that in his statement.

>Secondly, as previously established, Khan is not confirmed as a Sikh. There are arguements for both sides within canon and I'm not convinced of one or the other. It gets filed under the "definite maybe" category.

>Finally, I think we can all agree that racism is bad. Seriously, people, why the all the personal attacks? oh wait:

You addressed everything but the part where they said Avery Brooks only got the part because he was black. Should I ignore such a comment and let it pass without speaking up?


I addressed what I felt was important. I felt you handled the rest just fine.


That part about Brooks getting part because of his race was out of line. I disagree with it and know that Brooks got the part because he plays one of the best Captains since Kirk.


I would also like to point out that even Memory Alpha will not say with certainty what Khan's race was. So, we are left with a single line about a guess at his origins.


Secondly, no one here finds the whole idea of genetic engineering worthy of being commented on?


I guess if we engineer people its ok, but if we engineer our plants that's crossing a line, boy!

DriaLynn

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POSTS: 28

Report this May. 30 2013, 10:14 am

The thing is that Gene Roddenberry actualy went up there and said that if we took all of the genes in the world and put them together to make the perfect human, he wouldn't be white.

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 30 2013, 1:29 pm

Quote: bunkey @ May. 30 2013, 6:54 am

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ May. 30 2013, 2:22 am

>

>I read at least 1 of those books, but I always felt that the idea that thgey were 2nd gen augments was contreadicted by Khanas dialog in the film.

>From the Dialog of TWoK

>KHAN: Captain! Captain! Save your strength. These people have sworn to live and die at my command two hundred years before you were born.

1-They were a mixed lot of first and second generation.

2-books don't always line up with canon, which is why for the most part they are not canon.  They do spawn interesting ideas, thoough.

3-200 before Terrell was born, Khan was floating in space. So if you're nitpicking, that line is an error in itself.


1-That may be what they wanteds when the film was in pre-production, but its not what ended up in the finished  film.


2-The books are never dependable canon, but yes, they do provide good ideas.


3-point taken


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bunkey

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Report this May. 30 2013, 1:42 pm

The problem I always found with books is that they usually stick to canon for the most part, but can't be considered canon because future episodes or movies may contradict what they write, since episodes don't rely on books for source material or continuity.  


I can't for the life of me think of the title, but I remember reading a really good TOS novel that made a lot of sense, stuck with canon, but one of the later TOS movies ended up contradicting the book. Plus one novel can contradict another.


But some novels really do well at covering plotholes.

KelisThePoet

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Report this May. 30 2013, 2:45 pm

Quote: bunkey @ May. 30 2013, 6:54 am

>3-200 before Terrell was born, Khan was floating in space. So if you're nitpicking, that line is an error in itself.
Interesting.  I never caught that.  It's clearly inconsistent with the idea from "Space Seed" that the Eugenics Wars occurred in the '90s.  Is it inconsistent with anything else in the movie itself, or was that movie trying to move away from the idea of the war(s) taking place in the '90s, which may have already seemed too close?  I can't remember off the top of my head if anyone mentions Khan as being from the '90s in Star Trek II.


Falor was a prosperous merchant who went on a journey to gain greater awareness: Through storms he crossed the Voroth Sea/ To reach the clouded shores of Raal/ Where old T’Para offered truth./ He traveled through the windswept hills/ And crossed the barren Fire Plains/ To find the silent monks of Kir./ Still unfulfilled, he journeyed home/ Told stories of the lessons learned/ And gained true wisdom by the giving. – Falor’s Journey, “Innocence”

bunkey

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Report this May. 30 2013, 3:07 pm

Chekov describes him as "Criminal Keptain, a product of late twentieth century genetic engineering" to Terrell.

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 30 2013, 3:07 pm

Quote: KelisThePoet @ May. 30 2013, 2:45 pm

> I can't remember off the top of my head if anyone mentions Khan as being from the '90s in Star Trek II.

>
no not exactly.


Checkov mentions that he is the product of 20th century genetic engenering


 


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wissa

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Report this May. 30 2013, 3:09 pm

Quote: KelisThePoet @ May. 30 2013, 2:45 pm

Quote: bunkey @ May. 30 2013, 6:54 am

>

>3-200 before Terrell was born, Khan was floating in space. So if you're nitpicking, that line is an error in itself.
Interesting.  I never caught that.  It's clearly inconsistent with the idea from "Space Seed" that the Eugenics Wars occurred in the '90s.  Is it inconsistent with anything else in the movie itself, or was that movie trying to move away from the idea of the war(s) taking place in the '90s, which may have already seemed too close?  I can't remember off the top of my head if anyone mentions Khan as being from the '90s in Star Trek II.


well, clearly they can't go on pretending there were eugenics wars in the 90's.  


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bunkey

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Report this May. 30 2013, 3:14 pm

Considering TWOK was made in 1982, a full 10 years before the Eugenics Wars, they can. And it's fiction, so real life history doesn't apply.

OtakuJo

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Report this May. 30 2013, 3:15 pm

Quote: fireproof78 @ May. 30 2013, 9:19 am

>

>Secondly, no one here finds the whole idea of genetic engineering worthy of being commented on?

>


I guess Khan's engineering isn't really an inconsistency -- the date of the Eugenics Wars is vaguer than it was in Space Seed, but aside from that, there's no real point of debate on a matter where the film was (at least) fairly consistent.


Could go into a lot of detail on the question of genetic enhancement, and of the treatment of GE people in the Star Trek universe. Not right here and now though because I have homework to do!


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

wissa

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Report this May. 30 2013, 3:17 pm

I don't know how they could expect anyone to take it seriously as sci fi when it's going off of events that should already be behind us.  That would be like tos pretending ww2 didn't happen.  


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