ATTENTION: The Boards will be closed permanently on May 28th, 2014. Posting will be disabled on April 28th, 2014. More Info

He wasnt really Khan!!!

dhmac

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1

Report this May. 30 2013, 8:08 am

Well, it does seem peculiar that the original Khan was supposed to be a Sikh (that's why his name is Khan!) and the new guy is a white Brit. But anything's possible in this new universe, I guess.

fireproof78

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 342

Report this May. 30 2013, 9:19 am

Quote: bunkey @ May. 30 2013, 6:50 am

Quote: fireproof78 @ May. 29 2013, 7:23 pm

>

>First of all, he didn't say that white actors are better than colored actors. Nowhere did I see that in his statement.

>Secondly, as previously established, Khan is not confirmed as a Sikh. There are arguements for both sides within canon and I'm not convinced of one or the other. It gets filed under the "definite maybe" category.

>Finally, I think we can all agree that racism is bad. Seriously, people, why the all the personal attacks? oh wait:

You addressed everything but the part where they said Avery Brooks only got the part because he was black. Should I ignore such a comment and let it pass without speaking up?


I addressed what I felt was important. I felt you handled the rest just fine.


That part about Brooks getting part because of his race was out of line. I disagree with it and know that Brooks got the part because he plays one of the best Captains since Kirk.


I would also like to point out that even Memory Alpha will not say with certainty what Khan's race was. So, we are left with a single line about a guess at his origins.


Secondly, no one here finds the whole idea of genetic engineering worthy of being commented on?


I guess if we engineer people its ok, but if we engineer our plants that's crossing a line, boy!

DriaLynn

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 28

Report this May. 30 2013, 10:14 am

The thing is that Gene Roddenberry actualy went up there and said that if we took all of the genes in the world and put them together to make the perfect human, he wouldn't be white.

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 30 2013, 1:29 pm

Quote: bunkey @ May. 30 2013, 6:54 am

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ May. 30 2013, 2:22 am

>

>I read at least 1 of those books, but I always felt that the idea that thgey were 2nd gen augments was contreadicted by Khanas dialog in the film.

>From the Dialog of TWoK

>KHAN: Captain! Captain! Save your strength. These people have sworn to live and die at my command two hundred years before you were born.

1-They were a mixed lot of first and second generation.

2-books don't always line up with canon, which is why for the most part they are not canon.  They do spawn interesting ideas, thoough.

3-200 before Terrell was born, Khan was floating in space. So if you're nitpicking, that line is an error in itself.


1-That may be what they wanteds when the film was in pre-production, but its not what ended up in the finished  film.


2-The books are never dependable canon, but yes, they do provide good ideas.


3-point taken


Photobucket

bunkey

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 686

Report this May. 30 2013, 1:42 pm

The problem I always found with books is that they usually stick to canon for the most part, but can't be considered canon because future episodes or movies may contradict what they write, since episodes don't rely on books for source material or continuity.  


I can't for the life of me think of the title, but I remember reading a really good TOS novel that made a lot of sense, stuck with canon, but one of the later TOS movies ended up contradicting the book. Plus one novel can contradict another.


But some novels really do well at covering plotholes.

KelisThePoet

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 636

Report this May. 30 2013, 2:45 pm

Quote: bunkey @ May. 30 2013, 6:54 am

>3-200 before Terrell was born, Khan was floating in space. So if you're nitpicking, that line is an error in itself.
Interesting.  I never caught that.  It's clearly inconsistent with the idea from "Space Seed" that the Eugenics Wars occurred in the '90s.  Is it inconsistent with anything else in the movie itself, or was that movie trying to move away from the idea of the war(s) taking place in the '90s, which may have already seemed too close?  I can't remember off the top of my head if anyone mentions Khan as being from the '90s in Star Trek II.


Falor was a prosperous merchant who went on a journey to gain greater awareness: Through storms he crossed the Voroth Sea/ To reach the clouded shores of Raal/ Where old T’Para offered truth./ He traveled through the windswept hills/ And crossed the barren Fire Plains/ To find the silent monks of Kir./ Still unfulfilled, he journeyed home/ Told stories of the lessons learned/ And gained true wisdom by the giving. – Falor’s Journey, “Innocence”

bunkey

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 686

Report this May. 30 2013, 3:07 pm

Chekov describes him as "Criminal Keptain, a product of late twentieth century genetic engineering" to Terrell.

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 30 2013, 3:07 pm

Quote: KelisThePoet @ May. 30 2013, 2:45 pm

> I can't remember off the top of my head if anyone mentions Khan as being from the '90s in Star Trek II.

>
no not exactly.


Checkov mentions that he is the product of 20th century genetic engenering


 


Photobucket

wissa

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 4031

Report this May. 30 2013, 3:09 pm

Quote: KelisThePoet @ May. 30 2013, 2:45 pm

Quote: bunkey @ May. 30 2013, 6:54 am

>

>3-200 before Terrell was born, Khan was floating in space. So if you're nitpicking, that line is an error in itself.
Interesting.  I never caught that.  It's clearly inconsistent with the idea from "Space Seed" that the Eugenics Wars occurred in the '90s.  Is it inconsistent with anything else in the movie itself, or was that movie trying to move away from the idea of the war(s) taking place in the '90s, which may have already seemed too close?  I can't remember off the top of my head if anyone mentions Khan as being from the '90s in Star Trek II.


well, clearly they can't go on pretending there were eugenics wars in the 90's.  


We welcome st.com refugees! click on the image

bunkey

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 686

Report this May. 30 2013, 3:14 pm

Considering TWOK was made in 1982, a full 10 years before the Eugenics Wars, they can. And it's fiction, so real life history doesn't apply.

OtakuJo

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 16362

Report this May. 30 2013, 3:15 pm

Quote: fireproof78 @ May. 30 2013, 9:19 am

>

>Secondly, no one here finds the whole idea of genetic engineering worthy of being commented on?

>


I guess Khan's engineering isn't really an inconsistency -- the date of the Eugenics Wars is vaguer than it was in Space Seed, but aside from that, there's no real point of debate on a matter where the film was (at least) fairly consistent.


Could go into a lot of detail on the question of genetic enhancement, and of the treatment of GE people in the Star Trek universe. Not right here and now though because I have homework to do!


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

wissa

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 4031

Report this May. 30 2013, 3:17 pm

I don't know how they could expect anyone to take it seriously as sci fi when it's going off of events that should already be behind us.  That would be like tos pretending ww2 didn't happen.  


We welcome st.com refugees! click on the image

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 30 2013, 3:22 pm

Quote: wissa @ May. 30 2013, 3:09 pm

Quote: KelisThePoet @ May. 30 2013, 2:45 pm

Quote: bunkey @ May. 30 2013, 6:54 am

>

>

>3-200 before Terrell was born, Khan was floating in space. So if you're nitpicking, that line is an error in itself.
Interesting.  I never caught that.  It's clearly inconsistent with the idea from "Space Seed" that the Eugenics Wars occurred in the '90s.  Is it inconsistent with anything else in the movie itself, or was that movie trying to move away from the idea of the war(s) taking place in the '90s, which may have already seemed too close?  I can't remember off the top of my head if anyone mentions Khan as being from the '90s in Star Trek II.

well, clearly they can't go on pretending there were eugenics wars in the 90's.  

why not, its a work of fiction


Photobucket

OtakuJo

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 16362

Report this May. 30 2013, 3:26 pm

Quote: KelisThePoet @ May. 30 2013, 2:45 pm

Quote: bunkey @ May. 30 2013, 6:54 am

>

>3-200 before Terrell was born, Khan was floating in space. So if you're nitpicking, that line is an error in itself.
Interesting.  I never caught that.  It's clearly inconsistent with the idea from "Space Seed" that the Eugenics Wars occurred in the '90s.


From Doctor Bashir I Presume:


"Two hundred years ago, we tried to improve the species through DNA resequencing. And what did we get for our troubles? The Eugenics Wars. For every Julian Bashir that can be created, there's a Khan Singh waiting in the wings — a superhuman. Whose ambition and thirst for power have been enhanced along with his intellect. The law against genetic engineering provided a firewall against such men. And it's my job to keep that firewall intact."


_________________________


It makes sense to obscure / contradict the date of the Eugenics Wars in later series and films.


The '60s saw the 1990s, understandably, as a distant future. Even growing up in the 1980s, we viewed the 21st century as some kind of sci-fi world. When DS9 first aired in the '90s, to have kept the original date of the Eugenics Wars would have left most viewers with a sense of bewilderment -- "Hang on, that's not happening! There's no world war three going on around us!" -- and now the 1990s is in our past.


So you switch around the date of the Eugenics Wars a bit. It doesn't do much to diminish the overall point of that particular backstory.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

bunkey

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 686

Report this May. 30 2013, 3:31 pm

Quote: wissa @ May. 30 2013, 3:17 pm

>I don't know how they could expect anyone to take it seriously as sci fi when it's going off of events that should already be behind us.  That would be like tos pretending ww2 didn't happen.


Again, when TWOK was filmed, the Eugenics Wars era was not behind us.


 


Sarcasm is my native language.
JJ Abrams is not of the body.

Forum Permissions

You cannot post new topics in this forum

You cannot reply to topics in this forum

You cannot delete posts in this forum