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He wasnt really Khan!!!

fireproof78

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 342

Report this May. 28 2013, 9:27 pm

Quote: Mitchz95 @ May. 28 2013, 3:24 pm

>

>Who cares what his nationality was. What matters is that he was a good actor, and they decided that was more important than the color of his skin. If it makes you feel better, they tried to get Benicio del Toro but the deal fell through.

>If you need an in-universe explanation, just assume he was surgically altered by S31. There, all better.

>


Yeah, I would like to think that S31 knew of the supermens history and perhaps engineered them further to suit their own ends. Yep, I retconned it. It has little bearing on my opinion of real world factors. If I let real world factors influence my canon opinions, command uniforms would be green, the bridge would have no ceiling, and Kirk could eat the buttons off any console. And that is just in TOS.


There is an argument to be made, for good or ill, that they cast Cumberbatch for his exceptional acting talent and that is a compliment to Ricardo Montelban, though I'm sure that even as I write that sentence someone will read it as racist

OtakuJo

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POSTS: 16362

Report this May. 28 2013, 11:09 pm

How did this thread end up being another discussion about [--]ism in Star Trek or an attack on posters for even being halfway entertained by the notion?


Never mind. I already know the answer to that.


 


I imagine that the retcon idea was simply intended as a bit of fun.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

KelisThePoet

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 636

Report this May. 29 2013, 12:58 pm

So, wait a minute.  I always thought this Joachim guy was Khan and McGivers' son.  I know it's never stated, and it's been a little while since I last watched Star Trek II, so perhaps it's directly contradicted by something in the movie I'm forgetting.  Maybe they just wanted Joachim to be like a son to Khan, to complement the theme of fathers and sons in the movie.  Isn't there a young man in the movie that Scotty treats almost like a son, but really it's a nephew?


Well, whichever, Joachim looks too young to me to be one of the original augments--and it looks from the memory alpha article that the writers of a book series were also thinking along those lines, concerning the youth of the character.  So, while the idea of Into Darkness' Khan actually being one of the other augments is fun (if pretty clearly unintended), I don't think he could be Joachim.  Perhaps he's Joachim's father (if Joachim's father is not in fact Khan)?


Falor was a prosperous merchant who went on a journey to gain greater awareness: Through storms he crossed the Voroth Sea/ To reach the clouded shores of Raal/ Where old T’Para offered truth./ He traveled through the windswept hills/ And crossed the barren Fire Plains/ To find the silent monks of Kir./ Still unfulfilled, he journeyed home/ Told stories of the lessons learned/ And gained true wisdom by the giving. – Falor’s Journey, “Innocence”

bunkey

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POSTS: 686

Report this May. 29 2013, 1:02 pm

In non canon sources, specifically the Khan trilogy, Joachim is the son of Joaquin, from Space Seed. Supposedly his genetic engineering sped up his growth. Additionally, they explain the ages of the followers as being children on the Botany Bay crew.

KelisThePoet

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POSTS: 636

Report this May. 29 2013, 1:16 pm

Yeah, that's what I meant by my reference to the books taking into account the youth of the character.


Falor was a prosperous merchant who went on a journey to gain greater awareness: Through storms he crossed the Voroth Sea/ To reach the clouded shores of Raal/ Where old T’Para offered truth./ He traveled through the windswept hills/ And crossed the barren Fire Plains/ To find the silent monks of Kir./ Still unfulfilled, he journeyed home/ Told stories of the lessons learned/ And gained true wisdom by the giving. – Falor’s Journey, “Innocence”

DS9_FOREVER!

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POSTS: 214

Report this May. 29 2013, 1:19 pm

Quote: wissa @ May. 28 2013, 12:23 pm

Quote: willowtree @ May. 28 2013, 9:13 am

>

>

>I know you weren't, but it seems that many people who post about disliking the movie are automatically labeled as trolls

>

I have no problem with people who don't like the movie.  I find it kind of irritating how determined they are to make sure no one else likes it, but whatever.  Not like I havn't seen that before on these boards. 

What I'm referring to as trolling is the insisitance of certain posters that every single thread be about them and their favourite complaints.  No matter what the topic it ends up being about her.  Very telling. 


Wait.... Gusher v basher wars on a Star Trek message board?


Say it isn't so!! 


 


I just found this great Star Trek MB!!  photo ac1685424929087bf1b7e7e0d734f861.jpg

DS9_FOREVER!

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POSTS: 214

Report this May. 29 2013, 1:23 pm

Quote: bunkey @ May. 28 2013, 5:48 am

>

>Because institutionalized racism in Hollywood doesn't matter.

>Right then.

>


Could it be that that's just an excuse for poor acting?


Look at Sisko, and don't tell me Avery is a good actor. He only got the job because he was black.


I just found this great Star Trek MB!!  photo ac1685424929087bf1b7e7e0d734f861.jpg

bunkey

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POSTS: 686

Report this May. 29 2013, 3:36 pm

Quote:

Could it be that that's just an excuse for poor acting? Look at Sisko, and don't tell me Avery is a good actor. He only got the job because he was black.


Wow, that's probably one of the most ignorant and racist statements I've read so far on this board. Are you actually serious with that statement? I hope to gods that you aren't, because that'd be very sad if you are.


So you're saying actors of color are incapable of being as good or better as white people in general?  Wow.


Because he was black? You do realize they wrote him without color? Unlike Khan, who was establised as a Sikh, Sisko's race was ambiguous. They auditioned actors of different races. Another actor in the running for the role was Gary Graham, aka Soval, who is very white. They chose Avery Brooks for the part because he was the best for the role. 


Sarcasm is my native language.
JJ Abrams is not of the body.

fireproof78

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 342

Report this May. 29 2013, 7:23 pm

Quote: bunkey @ May. 29 2013, 3:36 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>Could it be that that's just an excuse for poor acting? Look at Sisko, and don't tell me Avery is a good actor. He only got the job because he was black.

Wow, that's probably one of the most ignorant and racist statements I've read so far on this board. Are you actually serious with that statement? I hope to gods that you aren't, because that'd be very sad if you are.

So you're saying actors of color are incapable of being as good or better as white people in general?  Wow.

Because he was black? You do realize they wrote him without color? Unlike Khan, who was establised as a Sikh, Sisko's race was ambiguous. They auditioned actors of different races. Another actor in the running for the role was Gary Graham, aka Soval, who is very white. They chose Avery Brooks for the part because he was the best for the role. 


First of all, he didn't say that white actors are better than colored actors. Nowhere did I see that in his statement.


Secondly, as previously established, Khan is not confirmed as a Sikh. There are arguements for both sides within canon and I'm not convinced of one or the other. It gets filed under the "definite maybe" category.


Finally, I think we can all agree that racism is bad. Seriously, people, why the all the personal attacks? oh wait:


 


Wait.... Gusher v basher wars on a Star Trek message board?


 


Say it isn't so!! 


 


I forgot


 


 

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 29 2013, 9:06 pm

Quote: KelisThePoet @ May. 29 2013, 12:58 pm

>

>Well, whichever, Joachim looks too young to me to be one of the original augments

>
other then Khan, all the augments seen in Trek 2 looked too young.


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stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 29 2013, 9:09 pm

Quote: DS9_FOREVER! @ May. 29 2013, 1:23 pm

>

>Could it be that that's just an excuse for poor acting?

>Look at Sisko, and don't tell me Avery is a good actor. He only got the job because he was black.

>
I've been a fan of Avery's acting for a long time.


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OtakuJo

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POSTS: 16362

Report this May. 29 2013, 9:42 pm

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ May. 29 2013, 9:09 pm

Quote: DS9_FOREVER! @ May. 29 2013, 1:23 pm

>

>

>Could it be that that's just an excuse for poor acting?

>Look at Sisko, and don't tell me Avery is a good actor. He only got the job because he was black.

>
I've been a fan of Avery's acting for a long time.


Opinions differ widely on whether or not Avery Brooks is a good actor. Personally I think he had his good and his bad moments, but aside from that cursory reflection on his acting ability, I do think he was cast because he was the best person for the job. Not all the actors considered for the role were black, either. But in any case, there are many good black actors out there, but I can't imagine many of them (for example, Michael Dorn) in the role of Sisko. It's not just a matter of acting ability -- it's a matter of fitting the best actor to the role.


I'm a fan of Siddig el Fadil/Alexander Siddig but I can't imagine him as the commander -- even though I know he was considered for a time. Also I couldn't imagine Stuart Townsend as Aragorn in LOTR even though I know he had that role almost until it was time to start shooting the movie. I'm sure there are better actresses than Marina Sirtis out there (this is no offense intended to Ms Sirtis), but it's hard to imagine another actress as Troi.


More than acting ability (or even race), the casting choices have to feel right, and that I think is a major part of why casting Brooks was right.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

OtakuJo

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POSTS: 16362

Report this May. 29 2013, 9:45 pm

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ May. 29 2013, 9:06 pm

Quote: KelisThePoet @ May. 29 2013, 12:58 pm

>

>

>Well, whichever, Joachim looks too young to me to be one of the original augments

>
other then Khan, all the augments seen in Trek 2 looked too young.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

KelisThePoet

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 636

Report this May. 29 2013, 9:50 pm

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ May. 29 2013, 9:06 pm

Quote: KelisThePoet @ May. 29 2013, 12:58 pm

>

>

>Well, whichever, Joachim looks too young to me to be one of the original augments

>
other then Khan, all the augments seen in Trek 2 looked too young.

I think those Khan books try to address that apparent problem by explaining that most of the augments in the movie are second generation and matured rapidly.


Anyway, it just goes to show that inconsistencies involving actors' appearances hardly started with Into Darkness' Khan, and this thread is far from the first time someone tried to come up with an explanation for those inconsistencies within the fiction.


Falor was a prosperous merchant who went on a journey to gain greater awareness: Through storms he crossed the Voroth Sea/ To reach the clouded shores of Raal/ Where old T’Para offered truth./ He traveled through the windswept hills/ And crossed the barren Fire Plains/ To find the silent monks of Kir./ Still unfulfilled, he journeyed home/ Told stories of the lessons learned/ And gained true wisdom by the giving. – Falor’s Journey, “Innocence”

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 30 2013, 2:22 am

Quote: KelisThePoet @ May. 29 2013, 9:50 pm

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ May. 29 2013, 9:06 pm

Quote: KelisThePoet @ May. 29 2013, 12:58 pm

>

>

>

>Well, whichever, Joachim looks too young to me to be one of the original augments

>
other then Khan, all the augments seen in Trek 2 looked too young.

I think those Khan books try to address that apparent problem by explaining that most of the augments in the movie are second generation and matured rapidly.

Anyway, it just goes to show that inconsistencies involving actors' appearances hardly started with Into Darkness' Khan, and this thread is far from the first time someone tried to come up with an explanation for those inconsistencies within the fiction.

I read at least 1 of those books, but I always felt that the idea that thgey were 2nd gen augments was contreadicted by Khanas dialog in the film.


From the Dialog of TWoK


KHAN: Captain! Captain! Save your strength. These people have sworn to live and die at my command two hundred years before you were born.


 


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