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unlike Spock

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 28 2013, 7:25 pm

Quote: Kilrahi @ May. 28 2013, 7:22 pm

>

>No, man, I'm sorry.  I really don't know how to say this but in some cases you just have to.

>I don't know where the struggle is, but your position is just straight up immoral.

>


So, in your eyesa its ok save 6 billion by killing 60 billion?


and you say my position is immoral?


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Kilrahi

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POSTS: 405

Report this May. 28 2013, 7:28 pm

You are creating a false dilemma.  There is no evidence that Nero's entry IN TO SPACE caused the creation of 60 BILLION lives that counter weight the 6 billion lives you know were lost.  The very statement makes no sense, you are imagining a problem that is completely impossible.


The real problem is you are so desperate to prevent a plot hole in Star Trek that you are willing to accept grossly wrong moral decisions as entirely appropriate. 

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 28 2013, 7:38 pm


I/m creating no false dilemma. 


I used the number of 60 billion to illustrate a point you arent getting.


Again.............look at the bnigger picture...........How many people do you think exsist in any timeline??Even I cant guess that number can you?To change history agaqin would snuff out all the lives in that timeline.Even if those people have a counterpart in the "restored" timerline they wont be the same people because they would not have lived the same lives.


So what you want Spock to do is kill everyone in the new timeline to save 6 billion lives.


The real problem is you are so desperate to get back the prime universe that you love that you dont see what the attempt would cost.

Kilrahi

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POSTS: 405

Report this May. 28 2013, 7:45 pm

You INVENTED the 60 billion.  That's why it is a false dillemma.  You can't INVENT points that don't make sense to prove your points.  That is not logic, that is quackery.  My original point still stands from several pages back, with reasoning like that any human being could go, "Why save this person?  I have no idea if letting them die makes countless lives better."


That's not ethics, thats evil.  I will say it clearly.  Anyone who will not choose to save the six billion lives on Vulcan when they have a chance is not only no hero, they're an evil bastard.  Any person on our real world who thinks this is a legitimate ethical decision is either mentally challenged or far worse.


Honestly, your position would make most moral relativists cringe. 

Kilrahi

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POSTS: 405

Report this May. 28 2013, 7:55 pm

PS - I don't care if they ever go back to the Prime universe and I stated that in posts previous to this one. 


So big fat FYI.

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 28 2013, 8:03 pm


Funny how you avoided the point I was making.


Again, I INVENTED nothing.


I used the number of 60 billion to illustrate a point you are either not getting or refuse to get.No less I put forth the issue as a delemia,question for you to answer not as a statement of fact.


I envented no point, for Spock to save 6 billion he has to condem to death all those currently living within the influance of the Federation.So that meens he has to risk the lives of everyone currently living in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants.


Thats playing God...........Is that what you think Spock would do......Kirk mostlikrly would,, Picard maybe, Janeway surely..........but not Spock.
 
Anyone thats willing to risk a almost uncountable amount of libes for only 6 billkion is short sighted.

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Kilrahi

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POSTS: 405

Report this May. 28 2013, 8:07 pm

We play God every time we make an important choice.  Big fat deal.


You can not provide any evidence that letting those 6 billion die is BETTER for the universe than saving them.  As I have already pointed out, your argument is a perfect fallacy for every lazy moral weakling on this planet today to never save any other life because it "puts the future at risk."


Choosing to let 6 billion die in order to save "an undefinable nothing" will never be the right choice. 

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 28 2013, 8:18 pm

We arent talkjing about us, we are talking about Spock.


You can not provide any evidence that letting saving those 6 billion is BETTER for the universe than letting them die.


No less you refuse to answer the question of all those countless lives, [likely a millilon times more then that were lost] that must die for the 6 million to live.  


You want to save 6 billion at the risk of an un-countable amount of lives in at lease 3 societies.Change the fedaration and you undoubablly will effect both the klingons and the romulans.  


If my argument is deprived of a moral standing how is your willingness to risk so many more to save 6 million?


Choosing to let 6 billion live at the cost of "an undefinable certinty" will never be the right choice.


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Kilrahi

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POSTS: 405

Report this May. 28 2013, 8:26 pm

Your version of lives is just that things "change."  I change lives every day.  It's part of being alive, and it's a moral thing to do. 


You equate any and all change with "death" which is just stupid.  If me saving 6 billion lives causes another 20 billion to suddenly love twinkies, or take up ballet, or become Libertarians when in another timeline they were Democrats . . . so what?  There is no crime in this, and I'll do it any day of the week. 


Vulcan was the most pivotal planet in the Federation next to Earth.  Between the 23rd century and the 24th those 6 billion were supposed to have countless children, invent countless thing, and and improve the universe in countless ways.  Then a genocidal mad man from the future meddled in the past and unfairly and unjustly ended their lives. 


If it was worth meddlin in the past with humpback whales so that Earth in the 23rd century can operate their toaster ovens its worth saving 6 billion lives from a temporal incursion. 


The real tragedy is you don't get that.  Your replies, both in this thread and others, have shown a countless crusade to defend plot holes at any and all costs.  The thing is, unlike some people who are defending their religion, their wealth, or their friends, all you are defending is a fictional sci fi show.  Holy freaking cow . . .


I think I'd better walk out of this thread before I remember all too well why Gene Rodenberry's idea of a perfect humanity is a hopeless crock of crap.

douglas.schultz.54

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POSTS: 15

Report this May. 28 2013, 8:43 pm

It may have been minutes for Guinan, but still 22 years is 22 years, just as you said of new lives, deaths etc... I have to wonder if the present day Guinan was aware of the change when Nero arrived in the past??

douglas.schultz.54

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POSTS: 15

Report this May. 28 2013, 8:50 pm

Did Tuvok phase out of existence on Voyager?  Did it even become lost or even exist?  lol Did Sisko's basebal game against a vulcan team become one against Bolians?  lol

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 28 2013, 8:57 pm


Your analog here isint on point.,Keep in mind my following words are depended on if you grew up with your father.


If I go back in time and kill your father when you were very young, then the person you are today would have been killed/never exsisted, wipped from history.The perswon you are today would be dead and in your place a new you, one that came to be with out a father..............he might look like you, sound like you, but he wouyld not be youy.


Because we are the sum total of the events in our lives.Even the smallest change in our personal histories could lead to a drastic change.


Changing history in the way you are suggesting can fairtly be equated with the "death" of all the lives it wilkl ultimatly effect.


"If you saving 6 billion lives causes another 20 billion to suddenly love twinkies, or take up ballet, or become Libertarians when in another timeline they were Democrats" . . . so what? "


There is INDEED a crime in this, and in Trek its called "the prime directive" .It is not for you to decided how those lives should have unfolded , nor can you see the possible outcomes of such actions.


I agree with you on Vulcans importance to the federation, and I agree those 6 billion could have also maDE IMPORTANT CONTRABUTIONS TO THE FUTURE.


But throu no falt of spocks, those lives are lost.And it wouldnt be logical for Spock to risk countless more in an attempt to save the 6 million, when he cant even be sure he can get the job gone.


The real tragedy here is that if Spock prime were to do that, then Spock would be guilty of the genocide of ther new timeline only to restore the old one.....if it works...........and thats somethinmg you continue to refuse to address.
 
As to your claim of my defendinf plot holes,....I dont see what your trying to get at.I dont even see how thise qulifies as a plot hole.,

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stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 28 2013, 9:03 pm

Quote: douglas.schultz.54 @ May. 28 2013, 8:43 pm

>It may have been minutes for Guinan, but still 22 years is 22 years, just as you said of new lives, deaths etc... I have to wonder if the present day Guinan was aware of the change when Nero arrived in the past??


I meen no disrespect.....but I dont see your point.


Sure Picards took thge frisk, but he had a 50/50 shot, and things couldnt get worse by sending the C back.


sPOCKS SITYATION DIFFERES GREATLY THERE.


Did Tuvok phase out of existence on Voyager?  Did it even become lost or even exist?  lol Did Sisko's basebal game against a vulcan team become one against Bolians?  lol


dOBTFUL................since this is supposed to be a new branch off in the timerline.


but even if.........Tuvok still stands a decent chance of being born since he was never norn on Vulcan


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AdmGreywolf

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Report this May. 29 2013, 11:34 pm

The things is that PrimeSpock would not be able to go back to the Primetimeline, because of the way he arrived in the first place, because of the uniqe facters that lead to him being there,


 


The Supernova of the Hobus Star and the Red Matter.


 


And another point is that everyone that I have read in this disussion assumes that the PrimeTimeline is gone, which it is not. There are now two main Timelines in Star Trek, the Prime one and the New one.


 


And It wasn't Nero that allowed the timelines to be split, it was something that happened a long time before Nero showed up. It was because of the incursion in the past of the Borg and the Enterprise-E.


 


In the PrimeTimeline that never happens, Cochrene flew the Phoenix in warp, Vulcans showed. And in the NewTimeline the events of First Contact happens, which then led to the events of Enterprise and then to Star Trek(09) and Star Trek Into Darkness.


 


Just my two cents.

moe.ives

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POSTS: 11

Report this May. 30 2013, 8:39 am

Spock stayed in this timeline to help restore Vulcan culture and history.


Like a living library, he could teach young Vulcans much that had been lost.

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