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unlike Spock

Kilrahi

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POSTS: 405

Report this May. 27 2013, 11:28 am

People are trying WAY to hard to explain the problem in the first film.


Over 6 billion lives were lost due to someone from the future meddling with the timeline.  Numerous Star Trek episodes have shown them willing to time travel to fix crap far less damaging than that.  Guardian on the Edge of Forever, Star Trek IV, and First Contact just to name a few.


If this WAS the Spock we all knew and loved there is no way he wouldn't slingshot around the sun to fix crap like that, and he could easily leave the calculations to the damn computer.


It's what is known as a plot hole unless you invent something to fix it (i.e. it was an alternate timeline from the start).

chator56

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POSTS: 498

Report this May. 27 2013, 1:50 pm

 I went back and watched Star Trek (2009) and based on the dialogue of several characters in the film, such as Nero and Spock, the altered timeline explanation seems like the right one. After the film was released, Orci in interviews began declaring the multiverse explanation, perhaps to prevent Star Trek fandom revolt against the new film? Its difficult to say whether he just started saying that to save his neck, or whether that was his original intent. Both interpretations seem valid.

douglas.schultz.54

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POSTS: 15

Report this May. 27 2013, 2:33 pm

What moment would be the correct one to return to to fix the timeline?  To weeks before the Hobis star explodes to get a head start, to the moment Nero arrives in the past, to the moment when Nero deploys the drill on vulcan?  speaking of the drill didn't that seem too easy?  We didn't even see Vulcan's defenses doing anything..was that ever explained in the movie? i know some star fleet ships arrived and were destryoed but still????

Kilrahi

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POSTS: 405

Report this May. 27 2013, 3:40 pm

Not only that, but in most time travel movies you only have a few years.  Star Trek 2009 takes place at least 150 years prior to the destruction of the Romulan world.


Meaning?  Meaning that for over a century Starfleet would know that Vulcan died because in the future they didn't save Romulus in time.  That gives them plenty of time to prepare, warn the Romulans, and prevent Spock from sleeping in.


Plain and simple, it just doesn't make sense that they don't prevent the destruction of Vulcan.


Whenever I watch that movie I just assume Q keeps snapping his fingers because for some reason he wants Vulcan dead.

chator56

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POSTS: 498

Report this May. 27 2013, 4:05 pm

Where's Daniels when you need him?


Not only that, Kilrahi, but before a sun supernovas it takes a considerable amount of time expanding as a red giant. This is a flashing neon sign telling you a supernova is on the way. Why not evacuate Romulus once this red giant expansion begins? The Romulans have a Star Empire, how hard would it be to relocate to another planet/star system? Prime Spock says the supernova threatened the galaxy, if so why would the Federation do nothing? And since when has a supernova ever threatened a galaxy? There's no scientific basis for such an assertion.

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 27 2013, 9:16 pm

Quote: Kilrahi @ May. 27 2013, 11:28 am

>People are trying WAY to hard to explain the problem in the first film.

>Over 6 billion lives were lost due to someone from the future meddling with the timeline.  Numerous Star Trek episodes have shown them willing to time travel to fix crap far less damaging than that.  Guardian on the Edge of Forever, Star Trek IV, and First Contact just to name a few.


Your wrong about that.In both the cases of "City on the edge of Forever" and "First Contact" the entire federation was wipped out of exsistence.


thats far more the 6 Billion Vulcans lost on 1 planet.


If this WAS the Spock we all knew and loved there is no way he wouldn't slingshot around the sun to fix crap like that, and he could easily leave the calculations to the damn computer.


Doubtful.


To begin with, I doubt he would trust the computer to something that important.The Spock we knew also once said that he has faith that the universe will unfold as it should.


And again, it meens he would have to play god, not just decied who livesw, but choose who dies.



Not only that, but in most time travel movies you only have a few years.  Star Trek 2009 takes place at least 150 years prior to the destruction of the Romulan world.


Meaning?  Meaning that for over a century Starfleet would know that Vulcan died because in the future they didn't save Romulus in time.  That gives them plenty of time to prepare, warn the Romulans, and prevent Spock from sleeping in.
 
And??Even if they now prevent the Hobis star from exploding it wouldnt help Vulcan in any way.

The only wat to prevent the destruction of Vulcan is to travel back again to before Nero arrives and somehow destroy his ship before he encounters anyone in the past.



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stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 27 2013, 9:19 pm

Quote: chator56 @ May. 27 2013, 1:50 pm

>

> I went back and watched Star Trek (2009) and based on the dialogue of several characters in the film, such as Nero and Spock, the altered timeline explanation seems like the right one. After the film was released, Orci in interviews began declaring the multiverse explanation, perhaps to prevent Star Trek fandom revolt against the new film? Its difficult to say whether he just started saying that to save his neck, or whether that was his original intent. Both interpretations seem valid.

>
theres also some dialog that supports the idea of a new timeline being created


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stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 27 2013, 9:23 pm

Quote: douglas.schultz.54 @ May. 27 2013, 2:33 pm

>

>What moment would be the correct one to return to to fix the timeline?  To weeks before the Hobis star explodes to get a head start, to the moment Nero arrives in the past, to the moment when Nero deploys the drill on vulcan?  speaking of the drill didn't that seem too easy?  We didn't even see Vulcan's defenses doing anything..was that ever explained in the movie? i know some star fleet ships arrived and were destryoed but still????

>


traveling back to the future wouldnt work because they woulkd end up in the future of the altered timneline.


the only possible way would be to travel to a time before Nero arrives, and destroy him and his ship before he encounters the Kelvin.Which really wouldnt be possible.


as to Vulcans defenses, I recall a line of dialog that stated Nero took them out


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stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 27 2013, 9:39 pm

Quote: chator56 @ May. 27 2013, 4:05 pm

>

>Where's Daniels when you need him?

>Not only that, Kilrahi, but before a sun supernovas it takes a considerable amount of time expanding as a red giant. This is a flashing neon sign telling you a supernova is on the way. Why not evacuate Romulus once this red giant expansion begins? The Romulans have a Star Empire, how hard would it be to relocate to another planet/star system? Prime Spock says the supernova threatened the galaxy, if so why would the Federation do nothing? And since when has a supernova ever threatened a galaxy? There's no scientific basis for such an assertion.

>
they may not have excplained it well but this wasnt a "regular" super nova, it moved much faster then expected, also, what makes you think the federation didnt offer help?


as to the scientific basis that it threatened the galaxy................you need to think outside the box.


Do you recall how Admiral Charthright described his prediction for the Klingon empire after Praxis exploded???That the klingons would go wilds attacking anyone they saw fit.


One can imagine the same could have happened if the Hobis star destroyed a few romulan worlds, they might become nomads, and what could happen to the worlds they conquered............that can be described as a "threat to a galaxy".


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douglas.schultz.54

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POSTS: 15

Report this May. 28 2013, 6:02 am

Consider this too. Doesn't it seem even a crazed, vegeful Romaulan would even have the sense to sieze the opportunity of being in the past to bring his  furture knowledge to the current Romulus....or maybe he did.. Watch out for the Romulans in the new AU..lol

douglas.schultz.54

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POSTS: 15

Report this May. 28 2013, 6:31 am

Agreed, the best moment in time is when Nero first arrives in the past.  Use the Gaurdian, place a quantum torpedo or however mnay needed to destoy his ship.  Woud this be a one way trip though?  In the original series. 'City on the Edge of Forever' they weren't returned until things were set straight or 'all as it was before'.  You wouldn't want to be on the ship when it blew up!  If you mastermind your way off the ship, and return to your restored timeline with your knoweldge of all the envents in tact, then prevent the destruction of Romulus or at least evacuate it.  what do you all think?

chator56

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POSTS: 498

Report this May. 28 2013, 7:55 am

stovokor,


Science fiction should at least adhere to known science, otherwise it becomes fantasy. Think about what you are doing, you are defending sloppy writing. Is that really the kind of Star Trek you want? Star Trek in any form should not be defended simply because it carries the Star Trek label on it.

wissa

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POSTS: 4019

Report this May. 28 2013, 9:06 am

what part of known science does time travel adhere to?



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stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 28 2013, 2:06 pm

Quote: douglas.schultz.54 @ May. 28 2013, 6:02 am

>Consider this too. Doesn't it seem even a crazed, vegeful Romaulan would even have the sense to sieze the opportunity of being in the past to bring his  furture knowledge to the current Romulus....or maybe he did.. Watch out for the Romulans in the new AU..lol


he had pleanty of time to do so


Agreed, the best moment in time is when Nero first arrives in the past.  Use the Gaurdian, place a quantum torpedo or however mnay needed to destoy his ship.  Woud this be a one way trip though?


I would say it would be a one way trip..............but just how is he going to do that now?


Remember, Spock Prime now lives in the 2250's, where is he going to get 1 quantum torpedo?????, much less that I doubt 1 would do the job.


In the original series. 'City on the Edge of Forever' they weren't returned until things were set straight or 'all as it was before'. 


But things werent as they were before because Edith met Kirk and the others.Thats a change in history, even if it wasnt important.


You wouldn't want to be on the ship when it blew up!  If you mastermind your way off the ship, and return to your restored timeline with your knoweldge of all the envents in tact, then prevent the destruction of Romulus or at least evacuate it.  what do you all think?


even if he excaped Neros ship in time there wsould still be a change in history, remember, the Kelvin arrived before Neros ship fully exited the black hole.


So even if the Kelvin is not destroyed, they will see trhe destruction of Neros ship..............maybe being damaged cby some of the debres, or simply seeing abnd scanning the event.


So there would still be a change to the timneline.


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stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 28 2013, 2:16 pm

Quote: chator56 @ May. 28 2013, 7:55 am

>stovokor,

>Science fiction should at least adhere to known science, otherwise it becomes fantasy. Think about what you are doing, you are defending sloppy writing. Is that really the kind of Star Trek you want? Star Trek in any form should not be defended simply because it carries the Star Trek label on it.


are you refering to time travel???If so...............


First, what does know science reaklly know of time travel?


Second, the idea of a new parallel universe being created by time traveling and changing history is a common theroy held by those that research such things.


If you are refering to the super nova............I dont get your meaning.Its not the first time we have seen a sun excplode because of some weird event.And like I said, they didnt really explain the event.Maybe someone attacked the Hobis star......maybe some weaid metror hit it.


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