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Preexisting Alternate Time Line

AtoZ2

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POSTS: 1297

Report this May. 22 2013, 3:53 am

Since people have noted differences in the past time line of ST09 (the advanced look and feel of the USS KELVIN for example) and now that STID has premiered with it's main villain Khan being apparently of English descend, it would be safe to assume that not only did Nero and Spock travel back into time, they traveled back in time to a preexisting alternate time line.
 
This would be the only way to properly explain all the differences being seen.
 
It would also help elevate all future films (and possible series) of the burden of being locked into past designs and creations that we know already.
 
This way not only the visual history can be different without argue, but history in general can be different also and not break any perceived laws of Star Trek canon...it would simply become an extension of Star Trek canon.
 
I think I can except this as being true.

OtakuJo

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POSTS: 16362

Report this May. 22 2013, 1:20 pm

hehe. Okay.


I put it down to, "Oh well, it's a movie", and why overthink about the niggly details.



Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

AtoZ2

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POSTS: 1297

Report this May. 22 2013, 4:03 pm

Hey, it's right up there with the obsessed fans need to explain why Klingon's from TOS and the film series look so different.



 

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 23 2013, 4:40 am

if that makes it work for you, all the power to you.


But for the record, "the advanced look and feel" of anthing does not consitute a canon/history deviation


how anything/anyone looks is a perception issue


and as to Khan.............no canon sourse ,not even the TOS episode space seed, clearly or definivily identifies Khand ethinic origins.


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Mitchz95

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Report this May. 23 2013, 8:39 pm

I always figured they surgically altered Khan so someone wouldn't recognize him out of a history textbook, and the accent came from living in London.


As for the USS Kelvin, it kind of looks like a transitional class between the NX and Constitution classes, and could have existed in the prime universe. In the new timeline where it gets blown up by a Romulan uber-ship (which promply disappears), Starfleet is shaken up enough to begin pursuing a more militaristic approach to starship design. That's why the new Enterprise is so much larger and tougher than the one from the original timeline.


That's all speculation, of course. You're certainly right that it could have been an alternate universe from the start. But as it stand now we have no way of knowing for sure, and probably never will.


EDIT: Actually, I think there is some evidence to support your theory. Spock Prime somehow ended up in the exact alternate universe Nero created. If Nero had arrived in 2233 of the prime timeline, then Spock should have arrived in 2258 of the same original timeline. Then again, black holes are unpredictable and there's no way to tell what they might do. So take my speculation with a grain of salt.


"The future is in the hands of those who explore... And from all the beauty they discover while crossing perpetually receding frontiers, they develop for nature and for humankind an infinite love." - Jacques Yves Cousteau

Kilrahi

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POSTS: 405

Report this May. 23 2013, 10:17 pm

Quote: AtoZ2 @ May. 22 2013, 3:53 am

>Since people have noted differences in the past time line of ST09 (the advanced look and feel of the USS KELVIN for example) and now that STID has premiered with it's main villain Khan being apparently of English descend, it would be safe to assume that not only did Nero and Spock travel back into time, they traveled back in time to a preexisting alternate time line.   This would be the only way to properly explain all the differences being seen.   It would also help elevate all future films (and possible series) of the burden of being locked into past designs and creations that we know already.   This way not only the visual history can be different without argue, but history in general can be different also and not break any perceived laws of Star Trek canon...it would simply become an extension of Star Trek canon.   I think I can except this as being true.


 


I have to admit, I really struggled with reality after Star Trek.  I mean it.  REALITY. 


This is because in Star Trek, by the 1990s humanity clearly has genetic super humans as well as sleeper ships capable of traversing outside of the solar system. 


Yet, the universe I inhabit has none of those things.  Nor can I really say we are even close.  That's a blatant contradiction!  With Star Trek as cannon, what does that make the universe that I inhabit?  The only real conclusion seems to be a bastardization or a bad story because it contradicts established Star Trek cannon.


Recently though I've come to realize I can explain all of these differences as the result of some sort of Borg incursion done on a smaller scale (so as not to be noticed by the Enterprise crew) meant to stunt humanity's progress.  We will no doubt hear more about this in a future Abrams movie.  

stovokor2000-A

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Report this May. 24 2013, 12:26 pm

Quote: Kilrahi @ May. 23 2013, 10:17 pm

>I have to admit, I really struggled with reality after Star Trek.  I mean it.  REALITY. 

>This is because in Star Trek, by the 1990s humanity clearly has genetic super humans as well as sleeper ships capable of traversing outside of the solar system. 

>Yet, the universe I inhabit has none of those things.  Nor can I really say we are even close.  That's a blatant contradiction!  With Star Trek as cannon, what does that make the universe that I inhabit?  The only real conclusion seems to be a bastardization or a bad story because it contradicts established Star Trek cannon.

>Recently though I've come to realize I can explain all of these differences as the result of some sort of Borg incursion done on a smaller scale (so as not to be noticed by the Enterprise crew) meant to stunt humanity's progress.  We will no doubt hear more about this in a future Abrams movie.  

>
I'm not asure what your talking about.........bad satories, contradictions??


THE REASON THERES AUCH A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 1990'S TREK HISTORY AND REAL WORLD HISTORY IS BECAUSE THOSE STORIES WERE WRITTEN IN THE 1960'S.


and in the 60's, it was widely believed that we would be driving flying cars by the 90's


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crellmoset

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Report this May. 24 2013, 12:46 pm

To be fair to the original writers humans sometimes have a distorted view about what a long time really is. I'm sure that in 1960 when some Science Fiction authors were writing 1990 seemed forever away. They could have given their timeframe extra padding without causing any issues but I'll forgive their lack of prescience.

Ethics are arbitrary.

Kilrahi

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POSTS: 405

Report this May. 24 2013, 5:29 pm

It was a joke folks!  I was making an analogy to the hardcore fan desire to make sure two versions of a FICTIONAL universe can plausibly coexist, and yet ignore it when that fictional universe that claims to be the future of our own clearly can NOT fit.


I was doing it in good fun though.  I do it myself.  It's just kind of humorous when you step back and look at it.

stovokor2000-A

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Report this May. 24 2013, 5:36 pm

sorry, the joke went over my head


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OtakuJo

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Report this May. 24 2013, 9:17 pm

The whole 1990s issue was one of the reasons why the writers of DS9 shifted the Eugenics Wars to a more ambiguous (and still future) "two centuries ago", which itself represents a major continuity discrepancy. (I won't say "error" or "gaffe" as it was very likely deliberate.) Much easier to reconcile a minor discrepancy that nerds would pick up on than a peculiar discrepancy in 1990s history.



Also why Greg Cox rather cleverly turned the Eugenics Wars into more of a war of covert manipulation than an outright battle.


All in all, a couple of interesting solutions to that particular conundrum.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 24 2013, 9:37 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ May. 24 2013, 9:17 pm

>

>The whole 1990s issue was one of the reasons why the writers of DS9 shifted the Eugenics Wars to a more ambiguous (and still future) "two centuries ago", which itself represents a major continuity discrepancy. (I won't say "error" or "gaffe" as it was very likely deliberate.) Much easier to reconcile a minor discrepancy that nerds would pick up on than a peculiar discrepancy in 1990s history.

>

>Also why Greg Cox rather cleverly turned the Eugenics Wars into more of a war of covert manipulation than an outright battle.

>All in all, a couple of interesting solutions to that particular conundrum.

>
I read an interview with the DS9 writers where they admited the issue of the date of the was was a mistake.


and a war of covert manipulation would contradict Spocks description


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OtakuJo

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Report this May. 24 2013, 9:41 pm

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ May. 24 2013, 9:37 pm

>

>and a war of covert manipulation would contradict Spocks description

>


Meh. So what? It wouldn't be the first contradiction to come out of Star Trek.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

Mitchz95

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POSTS: 1830

Report this May. 24 2013, 9:47 pm

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ May. 24 2013, 9:37 pm

>

>and a war of covert manipulation would contradict Spocks description

>


Unless ... he was mistaken.  


"Assignment Earth" suggested that Starfleet records of the mid-to-late 20th century were a bit fragmented.


And as OtakuJo noted above, Star Trek is full of retcons and contradictions.


"The future is in the hands of those who explore... And from all the beauty they discover while crossing perpetually receding frontiers, they develop for nature and for humankind an infinite love." - Jacques Yves Cousteau

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 24 2013, 9:48 pm

true...but why create more when theres pleanty already?

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