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An Old Posters thoughts on the New Film

adamking

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POSTS: 1187

Report this May. 13 2013, 6:06 pm

Warnig Spoilers! It just occurred to me to add this.


First of all I want to apologize for starting a new topic on something that I'm sure has been discussed a thousand times already here. Though if memory serves me correctly rehashing old news and topics is what these forums do by definition since 99% of all trek news and thoughts are old.  


Anyway I had a little look around but didn't see anyone expressing my view so i wanted to put it out there.


I love Star Trek and I first joined these forums way back when ST:ENT was still fresh. I suppose it wasn't that long ago but it feels like forever ago to me. Anyway at the time I was a defender of ENT and the very fact that I loved ENT bar season 3 should tell you I'm a forgiving fan. But for me these new films have been the most painful viewing yet.


There are just soo many errors in these JJ'era films. Now I can live with that when they feel accidental, when they're just errors that only die hard fans would know to look for. But so many of these are so glaring they feel intentional. Like Khan being white or the complete lack of recognisable species anywhere bar an orien girl or 2. Even stuff like using Star Wars humour feels like a kick in the teeth(aka look at this funny little thing making a funny face or whatever). And the whole basing them in another timeline, I know that's suppose to make it easier for us to invest since we don't know these characters fates now, but for me it did exactly the opposite since I know these characters and events have little to no relevance to anything I grew up watching and loving. Instead it just felt like a fan fiction and lets face it he just did it as a lazy attempt to avoid reading up on Trek and the problems of ENT.


For me the most painful thing was that I really enjoyed both films. The first not as much as the second but they both had brilliant Trek moments. You'll notice that I didn't really list off all the errors because what I really wanted to convey was feeling JJ's films left me with and that feeling can best be summed up like this. Imagine watching Breaking Bad or any series you really enjoyed and loving the stories, but every now and again you see a poster in the background with a picture of your face on it and the caption "This Guy is a C*NT", or a background character pointing his middle finger directly at the camera and mouthing your name. The story going on around these things is great but none the less you just cant help but be affected by all these personal attacks going on in the background. Well that's what it felt like for me as a Star Trek fan when I was watching his films and that's why for me his films are the most painful ever.

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 13 2013, 6:41 pm

well let me start by saying...welcome back.


now let me say that i take no issue with those that just dont like the film, but i do take issue with those thst mistake their likes ad perfrancess and call anything that go's againest a mistake in the film.


you sayyou have a list of said mistakes, and i would love to dissus them with you, but the ones you posted really dont meet the defintion of a story mistake


"Like Khan being white"........Khan is a created person likely useing DNA from people all over earth, we really dont know what race he was.


"the complete lack of recognisable species anywhere bar an orien girl or 2."  did you foget the Vulcans and the Romulands


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Flanaess

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POSTS: 24

Report this May. 13 2013, 6:59 pm

I can understand where some things could be upsetting to long time viewers.


I also thought 2009's trek was more of a fan film sometimes.


I don't think it has the multiple viewings attraction like the original ones.


Abrams' version is more of a pardody at times, to me.


Just personal preferences.


I prefer the acting school of the 1960's, rather than the 21st Century style, at least when it come to Star Trek.


 


I like the acting from 60's to 90's.


 


Sometimes it's fun watching at a slower pace, like a stage play.


Also, good to able to see details in set, scenery and props.


And have more building of suspense in the action sequence.


 


 



 


 


 


 


 

adamking

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POSTS: 1187

Report this May. 13 2013, 7:57 pm

Thank you for the welcoome back stovokor2000-A.


Your testing my memory now but as far as I'm aware Khan wasn't a created being, but a genetically enhanced one. Much like our friend Dr Bashir from DS9. And also like him he clearly wasn't white, even if it wasn't verbally acknowledged during the series(I think Julian was of Egyptian decent). So recasting Khan as a white man would be as distasteful as recasting Bashir as a black man. It's just not the characters correct ethnicity.


And I acknowledge that Vulcans and Romulans play a big part in the films and that Klingons are seen too(something I will get back too later). It's easy to do the obvious ones. What irritated me is if you know your going to have a scene with lots of background aliens then why not make just some of them races we know. I didn't see a single familiar species in working the federation(bar humans and Spock). I saw plenty of things that would feel more at home in Star Wars but i didn't see a Andorian or Tellarite anywhere. Star Trek has a massive database of varied and interesting species, he needed only to have looked.


As for other errors for now I'll point out one more as its getting late and return again tomorrow. Those Klingon ridges. Apart from the fact that those ridges looked a bit different from usual they had no business being there. It has been clearly explained through a mixture of DS9 and ENT that a virus swept through the Klingon empire resulting in them losing their ridges during the TOS period, making the way they looked during TOS not just a result of a lack of money at the time, but also canon. I know this is more of a die hard fan thing to notice and thus only a minor annoyance, but I just thought I'd challenge you with it since your clearly a Klingon fan.

Doc Boomstick

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POSTS: 178

Report this May. 13 2013, 8:45 pm

Quote: adamking @ May. 13 2013, 7:57 pm

>

>As for other errors for now I'll point out one more as its getting late and return again tomorrow. Those Klingon ridges. Apart from the fact that those ridges looked a bit different from usual they had no business being there. It has been clearly explained through a mixture of DS9 and ENT that a virus swept through the Klingon empire resulting in them losing their ridges during the TOS period, making the way they looked during TOS not just a result of a lack of money at the time, but also canon. I know this is more of a die hard fan thing to notice and thus only a minor annoyance, but I just thought I'd challenge

>


I think the virus only affected some of the empire, possibly only the descendents of those originally infected. So not all TOS era Klingons necessarily looked human. In fact, if they looked somewhere in between it might fit into continuity well. Something about it taking a few generations to wash out.

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 13 2013, 11:02 pm

Quote: adamking @ May. 13 2013, 7:57 pm

>Thank you for the welcoome back stovokor2000-A.

>Your testing my memory now but as far as I'm aware Khan wasn't a created being, but a genetically enhanced one. Much like our friend Dr Bashir from DS9. And also like him he clearly wasn't white, even if it wasn't verbally acknowledged during the series(I think Julian was of Egyptian decent).


you are incorrect sir....althou my use of the term 'created" as a bit of an over statement.


Dr.Bashi was a normal human that was geneticly altered well after his birth.Khan was the product of selected breeding and DNA genetic engeeniring  while still in the womb.


as for "clearly not white".....thats debatable.Ricardo, much like myself, was a very light skinded hispanic, had it not been for his heavy accent he would have passed for a Spainard or Italian.


Now I too would have prefered a person of color for the part, the characters ethnicity was never clearly defined.


What irritated me is if you know your going to have a scene with lots of background aliens then why not make just some of them races we know.


creative license


and the same thing was done in ST3,ST4;ST6


As for other errors for now I'll point out one more as its getting late and return again tomorrow. Those Klingon ridges. Apart from the fact that those ridges looked a bit different from usual they had no business being there. It has been clearly explained through a mixture of DS9 and ENT that a virus swept through the Klingon empire resulting in them losing their ridges during the TOS period, making the way they looked during TOS not just a result of a lack of money at the time, but also canon. I know this is more of a die hard fan thing to notice and thus only a minor annoyance, but I just thought I'd challenge you with it since your clearly a Klingon fan. 


I welcome the challenge, but like above you are in error


too begin with, we didnt see any klingons in the first film, only in the deleated scenes did we see klingons, and they wore helmits.as above,...you will see klingons with ridges in the new film....and yes indeed they have every right, by canon, to be there.


you are correct that they explained the "smooth head" klingons in the Enterprise series, and yes, the augmet virus spreded very quickly thou the klingon worlds......but if you recall, they said that only "millions" had been infected, and that the hih councel sent out a few ships to destroy all the klingon worlds that were infected.


So at best quess, by the time the cure was made, l 1 qess then or up to 1 quarter of the empire was effect by the virus.


so its logical that there wuld be pleanty of ridged and none ridged klingons by kirks era.


 


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Treknoir

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POSTS: 1784

Report this May. 14 2013, 7:51 am

Folks are confusing ethnicity with race. Khan Noonien Singh was white/caucasian. Augment or not, what he was not was lightskinned or of European ethnicity. Singh is a Sikh last name. He was meant to portray someone of northern Indian ancestry despite the original Khan being played by a Hispanic.


Please don't be disingenuous when someone brings up a valid point about the physical portrayal of the Khan character.


No, it's not really an "error" but it is a departure from canon and most hardcore fans know the background.


http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Khan_art.jpg


http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Khan_Noonien_Singh


It is curious how often you humans manage to obtain that which you do not want. - Spock

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 14 2013, 8:09 am

Quote: Treknoir @ May. 14 2013, 7:51 am

>Folks are confusing ethnicity with race. Khan Noonien Singh was white/caucasian. Augment or not, what he was not was lightskinned or of European ethnicity. Singh is a Sikh last name. He was meant to portray someone of northern Indian ancestry despite the original Khan being played by a Hispanic.

>Please don't be disingenuous when someone brings up a valid point about the physical portrayal of the Khan character.

>No, it's not really an "error" but it is a departure from canon and most hardcore fans know the background.

>http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Khan_art.jpg

>http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Khan_Noonien_Singh

>


I'm not being disingenuous about this in any way, and as to the validaty about the point...........I made the same argument months ago when it wasnt certin that Comberpath [spelling?] was playing Khan.


But then I realised something.....Khan was created in a lab and likekly brought to term in a host mother.Theres no reason to believe that the name his creators gave him was Khan Noonien Singh..


You point out that Singh is a Sikh last name.....but do we know thats his real last name?Maybe Khan gave himself that name when he decided to take over the world.


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Treknoir

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POSTS: 1784

Report this May. 14 2013, 8:14 am

I have an issue with making reference to "errors". The alternate universe angle may give you heartburn, but it is what it is. There are no errors only differences from prime canon. And even though I liked the first film, I can admit some of the changes from canon didn't sit too well with me. But I didn't and will never find such changes painful, annoying maybe?


I just don't know what fans expect from these reboots. I guess being a comic fan as well I'm used to crazy changes in a back story and main characters.


It is curious how often you humans manage to obtain that which you do not want. - Spock

wissa

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POSTS: 4026

Report this May. 14 2013, 9:07 am

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ May. 14 2013, 8:09 am

Quote: Treknoir @ May. 14 2013, 7:51 am

>

>Folks are confusing ethnicity with race. Khan Noonien Singh was white/caucasian. Augment or not, what he was not was lightskinned or of European ethnicity. Singh is a Sikh last name. He was meant to portray someone of northern Indian ancestry despite the original Khan being played by a Hispanic.

>Please don't be disingenuous when someone brings up a valid point about the physical portrayal of the Khan character.

>No, it's not really an "error" but it is a departure from canon and most hardcore fans know the background.

>http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Khan_art.jpg

>http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Khan_Noonien_Singh

>

I'm not being disingenuous about this in any way, and as to the validaty about the point...........I made the same argument months ago when it wasnt certin that Comberpath [spelling?] was playing Khan.

But then I realised something.....Khan was created in a lab and likekly brought to term in a host mother.Theres no reason to believe that the name his creators gave him was Khan Noonien Singh..

You point out that Singh is a Sikh last name.....but do we know thats his real last name?Maybe Khan gave himself that name when he decided to take over the world.


Usually I think you are spot on, but this time I think the criticism is warranted.  Your rationale is great, but really it's just an attempt to explain away things that had nothing to do with the story or history of trek with a canonical explanation.  Klingons didn't have ridges in tos not because of a klingon virus, but because of limits in makeup and budgets.  Kahn isn't South Asian in this film because that isn't how they cast him, not because he was genetically engineered


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stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 14 2013, 9:18 am

Quote: wissa @ May. 14 2013, 9:07 am

>Usually I think you are spot on, but this time I think the criticism is warranted.  Your rationale is great, but really it's just an attempt to explain away things that had nothing to do with the story or history of trek with a canonical explanation.  Klingons didn't have ridges in tos not because of a klingon virus, but because of limits in makeup and budgets.  Kahn isn't South Asian in this film because that isn't how they cast him, not because he was genetically engineered


Your absolutely  right...................in real world answers for these issues.But we arent talking about real world answers.


And its not like I came up with these answers myself, The Smooth headed Klingon issues were given a "hinted" answer in DS9 and then fully explained in ENTERPRISE.


And the character of Khan was indeed genetically engineered


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leroybrock

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POSTS: 213

Report this May. 14 2013, 9:19 am

Star Trek often does batshit things like having species 8472 hide their dna inside human dna to masquerade as human, having a Bajoran criminal with the skill to build a working clone of himself in a couple of days, species with copper based blood having babies with species that have iron based blood, viruses that magically turn races that they weren't even designed for magically metamorph people into other species, transporter accidents that turn people into little kids, and transporter accidents that successfully lump 2 people into 1 individual and your problem is that one of the tweaks to Khan's dna made him caucasian?


 


You need some fresh air.


I Am Ultra Narcissus.

wissa

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Report this May. 14 2013, 9:31 am

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ May. 14 2013, 9:18 am

Quote: wissa @ May. 14 2013, 9:07 am

>

>Usually I think you are spot on, but this time I think the criticism is warranted.  Your rationale is great, but really it's just an attempt to explain away things that had nothing to do with the story or history of trek with a canonical explanation.  Klingons didn't have ridges in tos not because of a klingon virus, but because of limits in makeup and budgets.  Kahn isn't South Asian in this film because that isn't how they cast him, not because he was genetically engineered

Your absolutely  right...................in real world answers for these issues.But we arent talking about real world answers.

And its not like I came up with these answers myself, The Smooth headed Klingon issues were given a "hinted" answer in DS9 and then fully explained in ENTERPRISE.

And the character of Khan was indeed genetically engineered


I realize that, and I can appreciate trying to put a trek reason on a production decision, but we can't lose sight of the fact that that is what we are doing. 


 


And Leroy, it is important, because it demonstrates a tendancy in Hollywood to erase ethnic diversity.  Not only an industry wide issue, but a departure from what tos was trying to accomplish.


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stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 14 2013, 9:39 am

Quote: wissa @ May. 14 2013, 9:31 am

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ May. 14 2013, 9:18 am

Quote: wissa @ May. 14 2013, 9:07 am

>

>

>Usually I think you are spot on, but this time I think the criticism is warranted.  Your rationale is great, but really it's just an attempt to explain away things that had nothing to do with the story or history of trek with a canonical explanation.  Klingons didn't have ridges in tos not because of a klingon virus, but because of limits in makeup and budgets.  Kahn isn't South Asian in this film because that isn't how they cast him, not because he was genetically engineered

Your absolutely  right...................in real world answers for these issues.But we arent talking about real world answers.

And its not like I came up with these answers myself, The Smooth headed Klingon issues were given a "hinted" answer in DS9 and then fully explained in ENTERPRISE.

And the character of Khan was indeed genetically engineered

I realize that, and I can appreciate trying to put a trek reason on a production decision, but we can't lose sight of the fact that that is what we are doing. 

 

And Leroy, it is important, because it demonstrates a tendancy in Hollywood to erase ethnic diversity.  Not only an industry wide issue, but a departure from what tos was trying to accomplish.

I see what you are saying.


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leroybrock

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Report this May. 14 2013, 9:52 am

If the idea of improving ethnic diversity is to be a positive one then I don't see how having the character that's a terrorist remain a little browner is a *positive* improvement to ethnic diversity.

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