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Brannon Braga calls lack of gay Star Trek characters 'a shame'

bunkey

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POSTS: 686

Report this Aug. 08 2013, 11:43 am

You've said you aren't a bigot and don't hate people due to their religion, but you've admitted to me that you're suspicious of Christians (despite many denominations being sympathetic to gays and proponents of at least some gay rights).  If that's so, then you should have no problem at all with Catholic.Fan expressing his views in a civil fashion, which I feel he's done. 


I do think you're right, though, that you do have a problem with him personally.  If you're indeed not a bigot wrt religion, then it must be the Catholic fans rhetoric and manner that has angered you more than what he has actually said on the subject.  And, being angered, you've insulted and bashed him.  I don't think he deserved that at all.


Short answer is I stand by my opinion of the said user.  It has nothing to do with being religious. I'm not going to be drawn into a debate of the validity of my personal opinion of one single user. 


I am personally suspicious of Christians but that doesn't mean I hate them or wish to oppress them. My suspicions come from many occasions of being victimized and bullied by so called "God fearing" nuns and priests and being failed by the Catholic church in some very big ways. So when I say I'm suspicious, it means I am guarded when it comes to Christians. I protect myself more, reveal less and it takes a lot longer for me to be comfortable in a conversation with them and am not surprised in the least if they happen to be the type of person that would take away the rights of other human beings in the name of God. 

rocketscientist

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POSTS: 10054

Report this Aug. 08 2013, 1:42 pm

No, Roddenberry actually did say that it would make no sense for one religion to be dominant on a space vessel in an interview.  I think someone actually referred to the interview here. It stemmed from his refusal to allow a chaplain on the Enterprise. You're correct in your statement but so am I.  It was BOTH reasons. I cited mine as an example of why there was not a single dominant religion.


Well, thanks for informing me on his other reasons.  


You're wrong.  The second man on the moon, Dr Edwin Aldrin, had communion on the moon.  The Apollo 8 crew read from the book of Genesis on Christmas, 1968.  There are many other examples as well. 


That is not an example of the space exploration in Star Trek. Space travel and exploration of other galaxies are not the same thing.   No one has encountered an alien race yet, which is why I cited the oxymoron of religious space explorer.  Also, the two examples you cited were in an era where pressure to be Christian was very high.  Reading the bible in space sounds like a bunch of "Good Ol' 'Merican Value" propaganda that was probably done for the masses of sheeplem who would look down their noses at the neighbors if they didn't attend church on Sunday. So I'm not wrong. You can't say I'm wrong because we haven't gotten to Star Trek levels of space exploration yet. 


What's the big difference between the space explorers of the 60s and early 70s and the ones on ST?  Heck, one could argue that the space race is what probably inspired GR to create ST and NBC to pick it up.  TOS was on during the Apollo program. 


What does the discovery of an alien race have to do with space explorers being religious? 


And neither of those instances I brought up were about proganda.  Neither one was directed by anyone at NASA.  In fact, a well-known American atheist tried to sue NASA over the Apollo 8 broadcast of Genesis.  Although she lost the case, Dr. Aldrin's communion on the Moon was purposefully not publicized to avoid raising similar ire.  So much for your pro-propaganda argument.  It just doesn't hold.


So I'm going to have to respectively disagree with you on the above. 


Historically, when "God Fearing religious explorers" encounter new races and cultures, they try to assimilate and convert them. If that fails, they subjugate them. Or just straight out kill them.  Just ask Native Americans and Africans.


 We haven't encountered any new races or cultures in a long time.  And, in any case, most of that was done for wealth and not due to religion.  That's due to culture and man's evil, not his particular religious beliefs, or the lack thereof. 


 


Religion is the biggest fundamental divider among humans.  You cannot convince me that if you remove religion from the equation that we would not be a much improved, more peaceful race.Religion is a deeply rooted belief that people cling to like a talisman in the dark or use to target others.  


Frankly, you sound like your hatred of religion is a deeply-rooted belief.  That's fine by me, as long as it doesn't extend to people who've done nothing wrong to you.


Look at Muslims.  They are the target of wide spread hatred simply for practicing their religion.  


I'd say they're the target of hatred and suspicion from the actions of a radical, hateful, and ignorant minority that kills and represses others, which has nothing to do with the peaceful practice of their religion.  I don't have anything against Muslims myself.  I knew quite a few in grad school and they were all good guys.


It's easy to tell a scientist their hypothesis was wrong. It's easy to say a math problem is wrong. No one gets mad at those facts. But tell someone their BELIEF is wrong and you have a holy war.


If that was the case, how come we don't have more holy wars now?  Yeah, we have the radical Islam Al Queda terrorists and the Taliban and the like.  You can bring up the Catholic-Protestant troubles in Northern Ireland, although that's more nationalistic than religious and not condoned by the heads of either church.  But, by and large, most people of different religious stripes get along very well in the US.  There is a lot of outreach, common goals, and common projects between different denominations of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.  So, I don't think it's necessarily the case that people have to go to war over having different beliefs.  If that was the case, I wouldn't have good friends who are atheists, Protestants, Jews, and a Mormon wife and in-laws.  I've never understood why anyone would care or should care what another person believes.  Obviously, as you say, some people do (and are willing to kill about it), but I've never understood it myself, probably because I was raised in an environment that celebrated diversity.


Religion asks people to adhere to a strict set of unbendable rules. There is no give in religion. That is where hatred and war begins. 


There isn't give in religion?  Really?  Then why does Catholic Catechism stress that the ultimate arbiter in right and wrong is an individual's conscience, as inspired by the Holy Spirit?  What about Vatican II, where so many rules were changed for the Catholic church?  What about the Episcopal Church's ordination of gay and lesbian bishops?  Religion is, by its nature, pretty rigid but it can and does change over time and its followers, at least many of them here in the US, aren't zealots.  We have freewill and minds, and I personally believe, since we were given them, we're expected to use them.


 


KHAAAAAAANNNNNN!!!!!

Stickist5334

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Report this Aug. 11 2013, 9:29 pm

I thought Neelix was the gay charactor? He seemed like a big bear to me!


Temba, His arms wide!

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Aug. 12 2013, 1:29 pm

Quote: Stickist5334 @ Aug. 11 2013, 9:29 pm

>

>I thought Neelix was the gay charactor? He seemed like a big bear to me!

>
Hmmm.... considering that Kes was his girlfriend until she left and then he left Voyager in order to be with Dexa and her son Brax.  Neelix even told Seven that he was planning on marrying Dexa.

Stickist5334

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Report this Aug. 12 2013, 1:46 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Aug. 12 2013, 1:29 pm

Quote: Stickist5334 @ Aug. 11 2013, 9:29 pm

>

>

>I thought Neelix was the gay charactor? He seemed like a big bear to me!

>
Hmmm.... considering that Kes was his girlfriend until she left and then he left Voyager in order to be with Dexa and her son Brax.  Neelix even told Seven that he was planning on marrying Dexa.


 


Nein nein nein nein nein


Don't be so literal!


 


I know all of those things happened on the show, but it seemed so forced and fake to me. I think it was easier to write that in to say that the charactor was "straight" then try to go with the fact that the guy baking muffins, decorating the ship and giving out hugs to the crew members was gay. I know I'm generalizing here but come on people, MOST straight guys both in general and on the shows never acted like this, grant it there are expections, but think about it! Nothing about Kes and Neelix's realthionship was ever natural!


Temba, His arms wide!

cptrobertapril

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Report this Aug. 13 2013, 10:42 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexuality_in_Star_Trek


 


This wikipedia entry has some good info about Roddenberry's efforts to put an LGBT character on TNG, Star Trek: Hidden Frontier, and characters in ST novels. If he's talking about a total lack, maybe he should pick up a book or invest in fan films. 

bunkey

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POSTS: 686

Report this Aug. 14 2013, 4:18 am

Quote: Stickist5334 @ Aug. 12 2013, 1:46 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Aug. 12 2013, 1:29 pm

Quote: Stickist5334 @ Aug. 11 2013, 9:29 pm

>

>

>

>I thought Neelix was the gay charactor? He seemed like a big bear to me!

>
Hmmm.... considering that Kes was his girlfriend until she left and then he left Voyager in order to be with Dexa and her son Brax.  Neelix even told Seven that he was planning on marrying Dexa.

 

Nein nein nein nein nein

Don't be so literal!

 

I know all of those things happened on the show, but it seemed so forced and fake to me. I think it was easier to write that in to say that the charactor was "straight" then try to go with the fact that the guy baking muffins, decorating the ship and giving out hugs to the crew members was gay. I know I'm generalizing here but come on people, MOST straight guys both in general and on the shows never acted like this, grant it there are expections, but think about it! Nothing about Kes and Neelix's realthionship was ever natural!


 


Just because Neelix baked, decorated and hugged doesn't make him gay. I know plenty of straight men that do all of those things.    I know plenty of gay men that don't do any of the above.  


You're also judging an ALIEN by human standards.  How do you know what roles, if any, Talaxian men have in the kitchen.  


As far as his relationship with Kes, I think it was more of a lack of chemistry between the actors. Jennifer Lien was very lukewarm in general as an actress. 


Also, one onscreen relationship does not a straight character make. He could have been bisexual.  


Sarcasm is my native language.
JJ Abrams is not of the body.

rocketscientist2

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POSTS: 9

Report this Aug. 16 2013, 8:23 am

Quote: Stickist5334 @ Aug. 12 2013, 1:46 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Aug. 12 2013, 1:29 pm

Quote: Stickist5334 @ Aug. 11 2013, 9:29 pm

>

>

>

>I thought Neelix was the gay charactor? He seemed like a big bear to me!

>
Hmmm.... considering that Kes was his girlfriend until she left and then he left Voyager in order to be with Dexa and her son Brax.  Neelix even told Seven that he was planning on marrying Dexa.

 

Nein nein nein nein nein

Don't be so literal!

 

I know all of those things happened on the show, but it seemed so forced and fake to me. I think it was easier to write that in to say that the charactor was "straight" then try to go with the fact that the guy baking muffins, decorating the ship and giving out hugs to the crew members was gay. I know I'm generalizing here but come on people, MOST straight guys both in general and on the shows never acted like this, grant it there are expections, but think about it! Nothing about Kes and Neelix's realthionship was ever natural!


 


 


Nah, Neelix isn't gay, he's just a creepy space-truck driving man who's such a loser that he essentially cruised around space until he found a alien highschool girl he could persuade to run off with him.  Talk about desperation!  Seriously, if you look at the whole Neelix-Kes relationship, it's creepy and weird.  They really are two poorly conceived characters.  As far as their relationship feeling forced and unnatural, I agree with you.  Heck, Ethan Phillips, the guy who played Neelix, agrees as well.  He said that he could never figure out how deep the relationship really was from the scripts.  I really think they started with a premise for those characters and, for whatever reason, were afraid or decided not to follow it through.  Maybe they realized early on that it just wasn't going to work.  And, as we all know, they got rid of it, thankfully, in season 3 (and in season 4 they got rid of Kes too). 


But, again, no, I never thought Neelix was gay.  I just thought he was a creepy, unfunny, desperate loser.  IMO, he's the worst regular character ever in the franchise, down there with some of the other VOY characters (i.e. Chakotay, Kim, and Kes). 

bunkey

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POSTS: 686

Report this Aug. 16 2013, 9:28 am

That pretty much does sum up Neelix....


 


You shut your dirty mouth about Harry Kim or I will hunt you down and put peanut butter on your doorknobs.

Hegemony.Cricket

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Report this Sep. 17 2013, 6:15 am

I support inclusiveness in media, but the trick is to make it not seem contrived. One of the ENT novels by Mangels and Martin had a gay Klingon couple, and it came off very much as though they were stomping their feet and making a statement, which is not what I want in my entertainment.


That being said, there is a NEED for gay characters in Star Trek, because the fact that it depicts a utopia with no gay characters sends an even bigger message. Having Mirror Universe Kira be bisexual and Mirror Universe  Ezri and Leeta be lesbians sends the message that it's a lifestyle choice. The absence of any gay or transgendered characters implies that they don't exist in the 24th century, that there's a cure for it.

dmg111

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POSTS: 4

Report this Oct. 18 2013, 11:20 am

The thing is that, because they are more accepting, they don't make a big deal about it. There aren't very many main characters where they go into detail about who they're in a relationship with, so it doesn't mean they aren't there. It would be a time when pride rallies and such aren't necessary.

Look at DS9 episode "Rejoined" with the female-on-female kiss. The episode was so emotionally involved that I didn't even notice the significance. (The issue was that they were two joined Trill who were married in past lives, and that was the taboo - not that they were both female.) They didn't even address it as an issue that they were both female, and the crew/friends of Dax were even willing to accept their decision if they were to violate Trill taboo and restart their relationship. It didn't seem to bother anyone that they were both female at all.

Unfortunately the episode generated a lot of backlash, and some localities didn't even air it (either the epsisode or the kiss scene itself - I can't remember). I may not have even seen the episode or scene when it first aired due to where I live.

switcherdawna

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Report this Oct. 20 2013, 7:27 pm

They touched ever so delicately on gender/sex variations with Dax's character... Sisko calling her 'old man' was often amusing. The TNG episode "The Outcast" also demonstrated that a culture can be hung up on handed down precepts of normality relating to gender behaviours... in that case to a species where there was 'no gender'.    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDljwStDG7k

garoquel_1061954331

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Report this Nov. 06 2013, 7:06 pm

Isnt the guy who plays spock in the new movie Gay?

OtakuJo

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Report this Nov. 06 2013, 10:07 pm

Quote: dmg111 @ Oct. 18 2013, 11:20 am

>

>

Look at DS9 episode "Rejoined" with the female-on-female kiss.

Unfortunately the episode generated a lot of backlash, and some localities didn't even air it (either the epsisode or the kiss scene itself - I can't remember). I may not have even seen the episode or scene when it first aired due to where I live.

>


I don't find that unfortunate -- lol. Not because of any misplaced "morality" regarding the whole girl/girl thing, but because they were actually quite a boring couple! (in a pretty boring episode, sorry. They had absolutely no chemistry, and as a result it was quite impossible to feel anything for Dax at the end of it.)


But I do agree on one point: the best kind of gay relationship on telly is one where the producers / writers draw little attention to the genders of both parties.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

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