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Brannon Braga calls lack of gay Star Trek characters 'a shame'

rocketscientist

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Report this Aug. 01 2013, 1:49 pm

Quote: bunkey @ Aug. 01 2013, 5:22 am

>

>“If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?” - Pope Francis

>BOOM!

>


Thanks for posting that, Bunkey.  I was meaning to post it myself, to help dispel some of the sterotyping of Christians going around here. 


What Pope Francis said has been part of the Church's Catechism from JP II.  The difference is that Pope Francis has said it in a very simple and straight-forward matter.  It seems to me that he has been trying to emphasize what all men and women have in common, rather than what divides us.  In fact he has said that he would rather not dwell on divisive topics where the Church won't budge (i.e. abortion, gay marriage, etc.). 


It was also good to hear that he seems to want to increase women's role in the church, noting that Mary was more important than any of the apostles, and that he wants to fix the annulment process, so divorced and remarried Catholics can more easily get an annulment and participate in communion. 


KHAAAAAAANNNNNN!!!!!

bunkey

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Report this Aug. 01 2013, 4:09 pm

If the Pope, who is as close to God as Catholics (or Christians or whoever follows him) can get and he's okay with it, then every single religious person who stated that being gay is a sin/abomination can STFU.

moscampfire

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Report this Aug. 01 2013, 8:08 pm

What was the love of Kirk for Spock all about? Outside of sexual extasy, what is love all about? Didn't we notice that love


could be passionate without getting one's rocks off? Is sexual stimulation a requirement for passionate love?


I noticed the passionate love between Kirk and Spock. Didn't you? Did they need to have sexual stimulation to make their love more real?


It's easy to have sex. It's real to have a passionate love without it.


Why didn't you see this?


Without love, sex is just sex. With love, sex is much better. But love can be greater than sex. Hugely greater.


Kirk and Spock never needed sex to validate the power of their love for each other.


Love is the point. Humm?


Peace


Mo

willowtree

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Report this Aug. 02 2013, 5:28 am

Quote: bunkey @ Aug. 01 2013, 4:09 pm

>

>If the Pope, who is as close to God as Catholics (or Christians or whoever follows him) can get and he's okay with it, then every single religious person who stated that being gay is a sin/abomination can STFU.

>


THIS!

rocketscientist

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Report this Aug. 02 2013, 9:01 am

Quote: bunkey @ Aug. 01 2013, 4:09 pm

>

>If the Pope, who is as close to God as Catholics (or Christians or whoever follows him) can get and he's okay with it, then every single religious person who stated that being gay is a sin/abomination can STFU.

>


Being gay isn't a sin.  The sin is "acting out on homosexual acts."  Also, again, the Catholic Church does not condone gay marriage and will not perform one.  To clarify, this is a quote from this Time magazine article: http://news.yahoo.com/not-pope-said-gays-said-183538032.html


Francis’ comment in May that some atheists might make it into heaven drew headlines. The Vatican’s subsequent explanation that his words were in line with a long tradition of church teachings did not. Similarly, Francis’ statement on the plane was not far from the passage on homosexuality in the catechism of the Catholic Church, published under Pope John Paul II in 1992. That text calls on Catholics to accept homosexuals “with respect, compassion and sensitivity,” avoiding “every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard.”


Where he differed is in what he left out: the accompanying message in the catechism that while a gay person is to be accepted, acting out on homosexual acts is to be deplored: “Under no circumstances can they be approved … Homosexual persons are called to chastity.” Francis, who cited the catechism in his answers to reporters, said nothing to contradict this. Asked for his position on gay marriage, he answered: “You know perfectly the position of the church.”


That said, while being against same-sex marriage, Pope Francis was a proponent for civil unions, a position that many church leaders are against.   Here's a quote from an article that I don't have a link to, but anyone can do a search to verify the facts.  It's all on record.


All this comes amid a leadership shift in the Vatican, where the newly selected Pope Francis has traditionally taken a more pragmatic approach than his predecessor on divisive social issues. While a bishop in Argentina, Francis angered other church leaders by supporting civil unions for gay couples ahead of that country's vote to legalize gay marriage.


I don't think you can ask much more from a pope wrt homosexuality and same-sex marriage.  Pope Francis is extremely different in his approach and emphasis from Pope Benedict and John Paul II.  He seems to want to move the church forward and re-engage it with world and people of all stripes while Pope Benedict wanted to move the Church backwards, in a lot of ways, to a pre-Vatican II version. 


 


 

KHAAAAAAANNNNNN!!!!!

bunkey

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Report this Aug. 02 2013, 11:01 am

The act of acting out on homsexual acts is only a sin if no one has an orgasm.


 


 

willowtree

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Report this Aug. 02 2013, 12:13 pm

while I am definately FOR gay marriage I absolutely support a church's right to refuse to perform a gay wedding. I can also understand religious people not wanting gay marriages performed in their churches if they are against it


What I don't get is why a religious person would be against a gay couple getting married by a non denominational person, not in a church. When I was planning my own wedding we saw that many of the reception halls have separate and lovely sections devoted to having a ceremony there. And honestly as a guest I prefer to have the ceremony and reception in the same place.

Catholic.Fan

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Report this Aug. 02 2013, 1:01 pm

What I don't get is why a religious person would be against a gay couple getting married by a non denominational person, not in a church. 


The simplist answer is that it's a defensive posture to the ways this affects the religious person outside of that one ceremony.


Let me give a real-world example:


The American Academy of Pediatrics has just published suggested guidelines for how pediatricians can normalize homosexual families in their own practices.  Pediatricians are recommended to put brochures in their offices featuring same-sex partner images, rainbows in the lobby, and forms that specify guardian/parent rather than mother/father.  They should also seek to promote homosexual advocacy groups in their area.  Furthermore, when asking a child about their sexual activity (remember, teenagers are still children), they should ask whether they are sleeping with boys, girls, or both.  


Now, if you are a religious person who sees a diverse population, the last suggestion is not inherently harmful in any way (rather healthy, actually, considering many of the problems that plague LGBT youth).  Yet, almost all those other suggestions have absolutely nothing to do with the child's welfare.  I mentioned this to article to a pediatrician I know, and she asked, Can't I just have pictures of Mickey Mouse and Winnie the Pooh on my walls?  How is a religious person supposed to react if the practice they work in adopts all of these suggestions?  A person who wanted to remain as neutral as possible given their profession (it's not a kid's responsibility who their parents are), now has to make a choice to stay and stifle their religious beliefs or speak out risk having to find a new job.


I'm sure there are many homosexuals who just wanted to ability to get married, but there are many more that want to fundamentally transform all aspects of culture to include them.  Religious people don't leave their religion at the church, and nobody leaves their sexuality in the bedroom.  Thus, there is going to be conflict.


 


Also, the Pope quote is cherry-picked.  It was in reference to gay priests, who are already supposed to be celibate.  Thus, even if they have a same-sex attraction, it is never acted upon.  He was only saying that we shouldn't judge people for the attractions they hold.  This is definitely a change in tone from how previous Popes have addressed the issue, but anything more drawn from the statement outside of the priesthood is going to be merely speculative.

rocketscientist

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Report this Aug. 02 2013, 3:08 pm

That was well put, Catholic.Fan. 


As another example, I'll bring up the genderless "Goldilocks and the Three Bears" book someone gave us.  I didn't care for that.  I'd rather have read them the original, traditional version of the story, with accompanying illustrations of the Daddy and Mommy bears, not the "Big Bear" and "the Middle Bear."  That just sounds odd.


It's definitely not a big deal, but it's an example of how the issue of gay marriage has affected children's books.


 


 

xander dax

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Report this Aug. 04 2013, 1:53 am

Hi everyone i just recently discovererd this thread, i must say that speaking as a gay man i was shocked and appaled to find that such closed minded, bigoted and insulting people exsisted in Trek fandom, and must say that i am personally hut and insulted by some of the things said about me as a gay man.


(don't even get me started on comparing us to pedophiles), and to bunkey and willow tree i thank you for your staunch support of the LGBT community.

rocketscientist

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Report this Aug. 04 2013, 9:05 am

Quote: xander dax @ Aug. 04 2013, 1:53 am

>

>Hi everyone i just recently discovererd this thread, i must say that speaking as a gay man i was shocked and appaled to find that such closed minded, bigoted and insulting people exsisted in Trek fandom, and must say that i am personally hut and insulted by some of the things said about me as a gay man.

>(don't even get me started on comparing us to pedophiles), and to bunkey i thank you for your staunch support of the LGBT community.

>


Sorry that you feel that way xander.  The people who compared gays to pedophiles are homphobes.  It's a hateful and baseless comparision.  You can have religious beliefs without being a hateful bigot or homophobe.   


 I know how you feel.  I also feel personally hurt and insulted by some of characterizations and the things said about Christians, Catholics, and infertile couples on this thread. 


Everyone deserves to be treated with civility, compassion, and respect.  At least, that's how I was raised and what I believe.  It's too bad some people don't realize or care about that. 


 


 


 


KHAAAAAAANNNNNN!!!!!

xander dax

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Report this Aug. 04 2013, 5:00 pm

Exactly!, my philosophy is pretty simple Live and let Live...you leave me alone to live my life how i wish, and don't bully me, force your beliefs or life choices on me, or try to trample on my rights and i will return to courtesy.


And to all those homophobes who think we are asking for special treatment on trek or think that gay sex will be splashed across your screens, i say this there a lot's of straight relationships/romances (hell even casual sex) tastefully shown throughout the shows and movies without being too full on, all we are asking for is the SAME EQUALL TREATMENT nothing more nothing less.


Also i personally am not a fan of watching straight people making out ect on tv, however when it is tastefully done and not to graphic i can sit there and watch and even enjoy the show still because i understand that it is part of the story or character development, and also that straight people and couples are a large part of society and need (and deserve) to be represented in entertainment, i just wish that people would be just as openminded and return the LGBT community the same consideration.

Catholic.Fan

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Report this Aug. 05 2013, 7:35 am

Exactly!, my philosophy is pretty simple Live and let Live...don't... force your beliefs or life choices on me.


It's interesting how similar this is to the views presented by us religious people.  


And to all those homophobes who think we are asking for special treatment on trek or think that gay sex will be splashed across your screens, i say this there a lot's of straight relationships/romances (hell even casual sex) tastefully shown throughout the shows and movies without being too full on, all we are asking for is the SAME EQUALL TREATMENT nothing more nothing less.


First off, you weaken your position by resorting to name-calling.  Your first paragraph asks that you not be bullied, yet in the very next paragraph, you seek to denigrate your opposition with the term homophobe.  


Secondly, assuming future Trek shows are broadcast on network television, of course there won't be gay sex splashed across the screen.  The FCC still has some standards of decency (though, those are falling by the wayside, too).  


i just wish that people would be just as openminded and return the LGBT community the same consideration.


Rejecting an opposing position in a specific circumstance does not make one "close-minded" when the reason for doing so is sound.  Religious belief is a perfectly valid reason.  Although you may not like such a position, that makes it no less valid.


Why does the LGBT community need representation in Star Trek?  That's one question that hasn't really been addressed much in this thread.  Does the lack of representation in this particular entertainment somehow invalidate a real-life worldview or lifestyle?  Does every entertainment need to be perfectly representative of real-world demographics?  This whole thread stems from the idea that a lack of gay characters is somehow "a shame", but why?  I mean, we can debate Roddenberry's ideas about inclusiveness all day, but when all is said and done, the man created an entertaining fiction.  


Star Trek, even with its lack of gay characters, has still managed to become a phenomenon among a very diverse range of people.  How has the franchise been hurt by not including gay characters?  How would the franchise be hurt if future iterations do not include gay characters?  Would gays stop watching Star Trek because of a lack of representation on the program?  If so, why did they start watching it to begin with, and why do they still watch it now?


I'm curious to see what answers people have to these things.

willowtree

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Report this Aug. 05 2013, 9:33 am

Trek doesn't NEED gay characters. I think what most of us are saying is that it would be nice if they were included so that there would be equal representation. It would make it more true to life since whether or not you oppose gay marriage or gayness in general, the fact is that it's there, it exists. And Star Trek was originally created to address the current social issues at the time, so to add a gay character would actually be following Gene's ideas.


Obviously the lack of gay characters hasn't hurt the franchise, and it doesn't keep gay people from watching it.


There also seems to be the notion among the anti gay people in this thread that having a gay character would hurt the franchise, and I seriously doubt that would happen. Espeically when you look at the history of gay characters in other tv shows. They were never hurt by having gay characters.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Aug. 05 2013, 10:16 am

Quote: willowtree @ Aug. 02 2013, 12:13 pm

>

>while I am definately FOR gay marriage I absolutely support a church's right to refuse to perform a gay wedding. I can also understand religious people not wanting gay marriages performed in their churches if they are against it
http://www.essexchronicle.co.uk/Gay-dads-set-sue-church-sex-marriage-opt/story-19597954-detail/story.html

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