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Brannon Braga calls lack of gay Star Trek characters 'a shame'

bunkey

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Report this Jul. 12 2013, 4:24 pm

[quote]And I think you're more worried about YOU being able to handle your kids learning about same sex marriage, because kids are much more open minded, flexible and adaptable than adults.


 


Are they?  How do you know?  Do you have kids?  Are you a child psychologist?  My wife is.  I'll defer to her judgement.  You're right though, that I worry a lot about my twins.  I'm a relatively new dad, so of course I worry!  They're 2 years old now and I'm already concerned about what they're going to encounter in school (primarily, I'm worried about the peer pressure, bad behaviour, etc.).  I want them to grow up to be good, kind, and reasonably successful people.[/quote]


No I don't have kids and I'm not a shrink. But you know what I was once? A kid.


You don't need to have kids or be a shrink to know that kids are adaptable. They learn to be judgmental and what's "right" and "wrong" from adults. They are born without prejudice or fear. They are adaptable. Everything they become we instill in them.  Same sex marriage is nothing  to be feared, it's not harmful or dangerous. It's life. Your kids generation will grow up with same sex marriage being as common place and normal as interracial marriage is to us.  

bunkey

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Report this Jul. 12 2013, 4:29 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Jul. 12 2013, 3:15 pm

>I can't agree with that opinion.  People say they're born a certain way when they're trying to abdicate responsibility for their actions... "It's not my fault, I was born that way!"  People are not born homosexual like we are with pigmentation - it is an act made by a choice.  People choose that "alternate lifestyle."  This is why some people and have chosen to stop.

>Anyone that can argue for a homosexual lifestyle can also use the same arguments for any other lifestyle there is.

>As everyone knows, if we change one of the variables in the equation, then the results also change.

>


 


Uhhh no. It's not a "lifestyle". People do not "choose to stop". There's no such thing as a "reformed" or "ex" homosexual. That is absolutely false. 


As far as your statement about people using being born a certian way to "abdicate responsibility for their actions".  What exact actions are homosexuals trying to abdicate responsibility from? Loving someone? Your statement makes it sounds like being homosexual is a crime that they have to own up to.


You're woefully misiformed about the entire subject.  


Sarcasm is my native language.
JJ Abrams is not of the body.

rocketscientist

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Report this Jul. 12 2013, 5:10 pm

No I don't have kids and I'm not a shrink. But you know what I was once? A kid.


So was I, and I grew up without hearing or knowing about homosexual relationships until I was out of public elementary school and I think I turned out, definitely not perfect, but all in all, ok.   So, in lieu of anything else, I'm doing the best I can to call the shots for the twins with my wife, who, again has a PhD in psychology with a focus on children. 


You don't need to have kids or be a shrink to know that kids are adaptable. They learn to be judgmental and what's "right" and "wrong" from adults. They are born without prejudice or fear. They are adaptable. Everything they become we instill in them.  


I agree.  I'm doing everything I can to make sure these kids turn out to be kind, good, and successful people.  I have a feeling I'm going to have a harder time doing that than my own folks did with me and my siblings.


 Same sex marriage is nothing  to be feared, it's not harmful or dangerous. It's life.


You're probably right on all of that, but it will have some effect on society (like the gender-neutral Goldilocks and the Three Bears book we recently got) and it is, right now at least, in conflict with what my twins will be taught about marriage, which will be the Catholic sacrament and the Mormon ordinance, between a man and a woman.  Those definitions are the primary ones that will be taught to them.  Obviously, of course, they'll have to learn that the word "marriage" has a wider, legal definition as well.  I'm going to have to explain all of that to them at some point, probably the day they learn about gay marriage in school. 


Your kids generation will grow up with same sex marriage being as common place and normal as interracial marriage is to us. 


Like I said, I fully realize that.  I knew it was coming (and my Mormon Bishop brother in law too) from the California polls preceding the Prop 8 vote.    


KHAAAAAAANNNNNN!!!!!

Catholic.Fan

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Report this Jul. 12 2013, 6:43 pm

Quote: darmokattanagra @ Jul. 12 2013, 2:08 pm

>

>rocketscientist - Again, the only thing I'm concerned about is when and how this issue should be brought up.  The Church of LDS, for example, was obviously very concerned about it interfering with the upbringing of their children.  I'd appreciate some sensitivity to the parents in this regard.

Parents raising their children to be willfully ignorant bigots is much more concerning than teachers explaining to their class that not everyone has "one mommy and one daddy."

>


You can't make a rational argument while resorting to emotional name-calling and stereotyping a large swath of the country.  

darmokattanagra

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Report this Jul. 13 2013, 12:13 am

Quote: Catholic.Fan @ Jul. 12 2013, 6:43 pm

Quote: darmokattanagra @ Jul. 12 2013, 2:08 pm

>

>

>rocketscientist - Again, the only thing I'm concerned about is when and how this issue should be brought up.  The Church of LDS, for example, was obviously very concerned about it interfering with the upbringing of their children.  I'd appreciate some sensitivity to the parents in this regard.

Parents raising their children to be willfully ignorant bigots is much more concerning than teachers explaining to their class that not everyone has "one mommy and one daddy."

>

You can't make a rational argument while resorting to emotional name-calling and stereotyping a large swath of the country.  


And you can't make a rational argument, period.

*rimshot*

Seriously though, what would you call someone who believes the world is only 6000 years old despite all scientific evidence to the contrary? I mean, I'm not even trying to be insulting, I just can't think of a nicer term than "willfully ignorant." Naive doesn't quite fit because it's not like you're just spouting off about something you're not informed about, you have the information but you are choosing to ignore it. That is willful ignorance.

As for being bigots, I haven't seen anyone but Christians argue against a gay character on Star Trek. Maybe I missed the non-religious argument willowtree asked for about fifteen pages back.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Jul. 14 2013, 9:28 am

Quote: bunkey @ Jul. 12 2013, 4:29 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Jul. 12 2013, 3:15 pm

>

>I can't agree with that opinion.  People say they're born a certain way when they're trying to abdicate responsibility for their actions... "It's not my fault, I was born that way!"  People are not born homosexual like we are with pigmentation - it is an act made by a choice.  People choose that "alternate lifestyle."  This is why some people and have chosen to stop.

>Anyone that can argue for a homosexual lifestyle can also use the same arguments for any other lifestyle there is.

>As everyone knows, if we change one of the variables in the equation, then the results also change.

>

 

Uhhh no. It's not a "lifestyle". People do not "choose to stop". There's no such thing as a "reformed" or "ex" homosexual. That is absolutely false. 

As far as your statement about people using being born a certian way to "abdicate responsibility for their actions".  What exact actions are homosexuals trying to abdicate responsibility from? Loving someone? Your statement makes it sounds like being homosexual is a crime that they have to own up to.

You're woefully misiformed about the entire subject.  

I'm being misinformed by people I know that are LGBT?  Why is that?   So, I had to send your post to a group of LGBT people I know and they're quite upset with you.  See.... as much as I disagree with how they live their personal lives, it's also THEIR personal lives, so they only have to answer to God, not me.  Why were they upset with you?  Well.... after removing all the profanity from their messages, the bottom line is that they believe that this idea that being LGBT is something your "born with" is just a propoganda campaign aimed at the unthinking.  (I'm paraphrasing to keep it clean.)  They also asked how someone can have "gay pride" if one doesn't have a choice?  One person even equated LGBT to slavery is they weren't given a choice.  To them, it's not logical.  They made a lot of other points, but I don't think people here will appreciate them.


One of the people I sent the post to went through and read the entire thread.... and he's quite disgusted.  Now... this person makes Lamar Latrelle (from the movie "Nerds") look masculine and is quite proud of his choice... calling himself a "Fabulous Femme" (not sure how that's spelled) and is not a Trekkie.  His question was, "Doesn't Star Trek celebrate diversity?"  When I questioned him about that, he was more appalled by how the non-LGBT were being treated than those supporting his choice.


As for your assertion that there are no ex-LGBT, then you're ignoring facts.  There are people that have changed, even if you don't think so.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Jul. 14 2013, 9:32 am

Quote: Catholic.Fan @ Jul. 12 2013, 6:43 pm

>You can't make a rational argument while resorting to emotional name-calling and stereotyping a large swath of the country.
That's why DT made my ignore list (which takes a lot.)  I wrote a script for GreaseMonkey (an add-on for FireFox) so that when the page displays, those that can't stop with that behavior won't have their posts displayed.


bunkey

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Report this Jul. 14 2013, 11:40 am

I'm being misinformed by people I know that are LGBT?  Why is that?   So, I had to send your post to a group of LGBT people I know and they're quite upset with you.  See.... as much as I disagree with how they live their personal lives, it's also THEIR personal lives, so they only have to answer to God, not me.  Why were they upset with you?  Well.... after removing all the profanity from their messages, the bottom line is that they believe that this idea that being LGBT is something your "born with" is just a propoganda campaign aimed at the unthinking.  (I'm paraphrasing to keep it clean.)  They also asked how someone can have "gay pride" if one doesn't have a choice?  One person even equated LGBT to slavery is they weren't given a choice.  To them, it's not logical.  They made a lot of other points, but I don't think people here will appreciate them.


One of the people I sent the post to went through and read the entire thread.... and he's quite disgusted.  Now... this person makes Lamar Latrelle (from the movie "Nerds") look masculine and is quite proud of his choice... calling himself a "Fabulous Femme" (not sure how that's spelled) and is not a Trekkie.  His question was, "Doesn't Star Trek celebrate diversity?"  When I questioned him about that, he was more appalled by how the non-LGBT were being treated than those supporting his choice.


As for your assertion that there are no ex-LGBT, then you're ignoring facts.  There are people that have changed, even if you don't think so.


 


That is the biggest load of horsecrap I've ever read. You're a pretty good fiction writer there.  There is so much bull$h!t in your post I can't even....haha.  You made up some tall tale there.


 


The fact that your fictional group equates being "born with" LGBT as slavery gives away the fact that you made the whole thing up.  "Born with" sounds like an affliction.  You are a very very poor BS artist.


So you can't have gay pride if you don't "choose" to be gay?  Does that apply to Black pride? Irish pride? Feminine pride?  So you can't have pride in how you were born?


 


Truly amusing.  Nice try though.


Sarcasm is my native language.
JJ Abrams is not of the body.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Jul. 14 2013, 1:18 pm

Quote: bunkey @ Jul. 14 2013, 11:40 am

>That is the biggest load of horsecrap I've ever read. You're a pretty good fiction writer there.  There is so much bull$h!t in your post I can't even....haha.  You made up some tall tale there.

>The fact that your fictional group equates being "born with" LGBT as slavery gives away the fact that you made the whole thing up.  "Born with" sounds like an affliction.  You are a very very poor BS artist.

>So you can't have gay pride if you don't "choose" to be gay?  Does that apply to Black pride? Irish pride? Feminine pride?  So you can't have pride in how you were born?

>Truly amusing.  Nice try though.
Tall tales?  You're the one talking about being born LBGT.  You can choose to believe or not believe whatever you want.  Hmmm... there's a common theme there... CHOICE.  As for me, I've never had the imagination to write fiction, and anyone that's been around here for any length of time knows that I'm very serious about being truthful about everything.  (I won't even exaggerate unless it's really, really obvious.)  Feel free to agree or disagree, but know that everything I say is the truth as best I know it as I'm too scared of what God will do to me if I'm not.  (Plus, webs of deceit are too hard to keep track of - people are always caught.)


You're the one that said people are born that way, to which I disageed.  That's freedom - we can each disagree with each other.


And I have to agree with the people I know about not having pride in something if we don't have a choice.  If one doesn't have a choice in the matter, how can one logically be prideful of it.  How can I be proud that I'm tall, or athetic or smart or whatever nature gave me?  Yes... I can be thankful that I was born with certain attributes or in a certain country, but that doesn't make me proud.  To have pride in something, it's because someone took action.  How can someone take pride in pigmentation?  Nope - but they can take pride in what they accomplished (like Booker T. Washington, Frederick Douglass, Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr..)  Or how about Stephen Hawking who's accomplished so much even though he's physically disabled?  Or let's take someone who was born into royalty (pick a country that still does that) - it's not the random chance that they can be proud of, it's what they do with it.  IMO, that's where pride comes from.

queenuhura

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Report this Jul. 14 2013, 2:05 pm

Quote: Catholic.Fan @ Jun. 14 2013, 1:31 pm


You can laugh all you like, but it's the core of the problem.  You cannot preach tolerance while practicing intolerance, otherwise your words have no weight.
__________________________________________________________________


I agree. I must say that this has been an utterly enthralling discussion that would take up entirely too much of my time to properly address, so I will simply say that if you expect others to accept you and your lifestyle then you have to accept that some others do not agree with or like what you do and do not wish to see it or be exposed to it. I know its not PC, but I will say that if gays are portrayed on Star Trek, I can just not watch. That is my choice.  We are all entitled to our opinions and none of them are wrong. You may not agree, but youre entitled to that too. An opinion is not a statement of fact, it is the way someone feels. Its not right or wrong, it just is.  


Others have viewed this thread and chosen not to speak for fear of being labeled a bigot or called names. So be it. I have said my piece, but I will not be drawn into this argument. Have a nice day.


 


Quote:Starfan97 @Jun. 13 2013, 11:28 am


No       No No No
___________________________________________________________________


Enough said.


*Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations* *Live Long and Prosper*

bunkey

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Report this Jul. 14 2013, 2:43 pm

Tall tales?  You're the one talking about being born LBGT.  You can choose to believe or not believe whatever you want.  Hmmm... there's a common theme there... CHOICE.  As for me, I've never had the imagination to write fiction, and anyone that's been around here for any length of time knows that I'm very serious about being truthful about everything.  (I won't even exaggerate unless it's really, really obvious.)  Feel free to agree or disagree, but know that everything I say is the truth as best I know it as I'm too scared of what God will do to me if I'm not.  (Plus, webs of deceit are too hard to keep track of - people are always caught.)


You're the one that said people are born that way, to which I disageed.  That's freedom - we can each disagree with each other.


And I have to agree with the people I know about not having pride in something if we don't have a choice.  If one doesn't have a choice in the matter, how can one logically be prideful of it.  How can I be proud that I'm tall, or athetic or smart or whatever nature gave me?  Yes... I can be thankful that I was born with certain attributes or in a certain country, but that doesn't make me proud.  To have pride in something, it's because someone took action.  How can someone take pride in pigmentation?  Nope - but they can take pride in what they accomplished (like Booker T. Washington, Frederick Douglass, Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr..)  Or how about Stephen Hawking who's accomplished so much even though he's physically disabled?  Or let's take someone who was born into royalty (pick a country that still does that) - it's not the random chance that they can be proud of, it's what they do with it.  IMO, that's where pride comes from.


 


It's very convenient that you suddenly pull some imaginary LGBT community out of thin air that magically agrees with everything you are saying that is misinformed and outright false and is "very upset with me". Yeah, you're "scared of God" because no one has ever lied on the internet.  


You expect me to believe your line of BS as opposed to what I've experienced first hand? I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn. Cheap. You're outright lying, dude. 


So no one can have pride in their heritage just for the sake of it? Okay then. Right.



 


Sarcasm is my native language.
JJ Abrams is not of the body.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Jul. 14 2013, 3:54 pm

Quote: bunkey @ Jul. 14 2013, 2:43 pm

>It's very convenient that you suddenly pull some imaginary LGBT community out of thin air that magically agrees with everything you are saying that is misinformed and outright false and is "very upset with me". Yeah, you're "scared of God" because no one has ever lied on the internet.  

>You expect me to believe your line of BS as opposed to what I've experienced first hand? I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn. Cheap. You're outright lying, dude. 

>So no one can have pride in their heritage just for the sake of it? Okay then. Right.
No, they don't agree with everything I say, and I don't agree with them most of the time.  But... when there's an LGBT issue, I ask them because I want to learn their opinion and learn WHY.


As I said before, you can choose to believe anything you want.  If you want to consider the truth a lie... that's your choice.  I do think it's interesting that you consider someone that disagrees with you a liar, even though everyone that's been here for any length of time knows differently.


Did I say that someone couldn't have sake in their heritage?  You're changing the argument.  Heritage is based some previous action, which can be passed down (inherited.)  I'm very proud of some of my ancestors and what they accomplished, but that doesn't make me proud that I am their descendant - only what I accomplish.

bunkey

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Report this Jul. 15 2013, 4:49 am

Honey I'm not call you a liar because you disagree with me. Plenty of people disagree with me. I'm calling you a liar because what you posted is absolutely false.   What you posted is essentially the same thing as "I believe the world is flat and I emailed a group of scientists and they agree with me."  It's THAT ludicrious.


Lemme 'slpain you a thing. People are born gay, straight or bisexual. What they CHOOSE is to live the way nature intended them to and not try to conform to society's "normal" relationship definition. They choose to act on their attraction THE SAME WAY EVERY HUMAN BEING DOES.   You're BORN with a natural attraction to the opposite sex, the same sex, or both.  If you are a gay man, you were born with the tendency to be attracted to men and (sometimes) little or no sexual attraction to women. Even if you woke up one day after being "straight" for your whole life and say "hey, I wanna have sex with men!" that desire was always there. It was just buried so deep by society and shame that you didn't realize it was there. You know why straight men and women are straight? Because they aren't sexually attracted to the same sex.  They have no desire to build a life with someone of the same sex. Can't force themselves to be. Can't force a straight man to find another man attractive, to want to share a life with another man. That desire has to be part of them.  There's a difference, you don't choose to be gay, you realize you're gay.


Many men and women have said that if given a choice, would choose NOT to be gay simply because they live in a place that's unaccepting of them, their parent's have rejected them and they have to deal with discrimination everywhere they go.  Do you think it's easy being gay?  Imagine being gay and living in a country where gay sex is a crime. Do you think THAT'S a choice?  When being gay is punishable by death? What about every young teenager who kills themself because they are gay and "different" and they leave a note or tearful final video about how they just want to be "normal"? Do you think they chose that? Or were they born gay and can't change it? 


So yeah, you're full of BS with you imaginary LGBT group.

willowtree

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Report this Jul. 15 2013, 8:09 am

On the subject of kids....


They are like sponges, they absorb everything they see and hear around them whether or not you realize it. And the majority of what they see and hear comes from the parents.


it is likely that young kids will have a friend or know of someone who is the child of a same sex couple. Kids should be taught from an early age about same sex couples, the same way they're tauht about hetero couples. They should be taught that familes come in all different shapes and sizes and that none of them are wrong, and that no child that comes from any family is wrong. This is something parents/caregviers should be teaching their kids.  Kids should be taught tolerance from as young of an age as possible.


 

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Jul. 15 2013, 8:55 am

Quote: bunkey @ Jul. 15 2013, 4:49 am

>

>Honey I'm not call you a liar because you disagree with me. Plenty of people disagree with me. I'm calling you a liar because what you posted is absolutely false.   What you posted is essentially the same thing as "I believe the world is flat and I emailed a group of scientists and they agree with me."  It's THAT ludicrious.

>Lemme 'slpain you a thing. People are born gay, straight or bisexual. What they CHOOSE is to live the way nature intended them to and not try to conform to society's "normal" relationship definition. They choose to act on their attraction THE SAME WAY EVERY HUMAN BEING DOES.   You're BORN with a natural attraction to the opposite sex, the same sex, or both.  If you are a gay man, you were born with the tendency to be attracted to men and (sometimes) little or no sexual attraction to women. Even if you woke up one day after being "straight" for your whole life and say "hey, I wanna have sex with men!" that desire was always there. It was just buried so deep by society and shame that you didn't realize it was there. You know why straight men and women are straight? Because they aren't sexually attracted to the same sex.  They have no desire to build a life with someone of the same sex. Can't force themselves to be. Can't force a straight man to find another man attractive, to want to share a life with another man. That desire has to be part of them.  There's a difference, you don't choose to be gay, you realize you're gay.

>Many men and women have said that if given a choice, would choose NOT to be gay simply because they live in a place that's unaccepting of them, their parent's have rejected them and they have to deal with discrimination everywhere they go.  Do you think it's easy being gay?  Imagine being gay and living in a country where gay sex is a crime. Do you think THAT'S a choice?  When being gay is punishable by death? What about every young teenager who kills themself because they are gay and "different" and they leave a note or tearful final video about how they just want to be "normal"? Do you think they chose that? Or were they born gay and can't change it? 

>So yeah, you're full of BS with you imaginary LGBT group.

>
Hmm.... so let's get this straight.... You have an opinion and decide to call it "fact" and attack someone that disagrees with you without provocation.  So much for tolerance and diversity.  Looks like you're incapable of having a rational discussion.  I really am sorry that you've chosen that path.  Good-bye.


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