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A very thoughtful article about the casting choices in Star Trek Into Darkness

bunkey

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POSTS: 686

Report this May. 21 2013, 3:56 pm

Quote:

Whatever The Plot Is For the Next Film; Somebody PLEASE, Cast KATE UPTON As YEOMAN JANICE RAND! thank you!


I'm sure you don't need her cast in a Star Trel movie to see her in her underwear, which seems to be the initiation tradition for women of NuTrek


Sarcasm is my native language.
JJ Abrams is not of the body.

Somniac

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POSTS: 462

Report this May. 22 2013, 5:19 am

Hooray! A reply box after about 20 reloads. Fix it someone!


Khan wasn't the only race issue. I have posted elsewhere that I watched TSFS the next day and the lead roles taken by black actors in that made the obvious racism of STID stick out like a sore thumb. Watch any Trek before 09 and there is a glaring difference in the racial profile.


For example:Nichelle Nichols is a black actress. Zoe Saldana is mixed race.


There is a world of difference when black people are looking for positive images in the media.


 


 


What other people think of you is none of your business.

bunkey

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POSTS: 686

Report this May. 22 2013, 7:10 am

Well the mixed race thing is a double edged sword.  I would have preferred a woman that looked more Afrocentric, personally, due to Uhura being from Africa.  I would have also liked a woman who looks like she ate a sandwich once in a while, because Zoe Saldana is too damn skinny. I also think she's a terrible actress and was a poor Uhura choice overall.


Hollywood has always favored lightskinned and mixed women. I was actually shocked when I saw the actress that plays Michonne on The Walking Dead because she actually looked like the comic book. (And she has become the idol of millions of little black girls). So there is a favoritism for the so called "high yellow" girls in Hollywood and actresses with truly dark skin and so called "ethnic features" are underrepresented. (Just look at so called "black" Barbies). Many dark skinned black girls are told that  they're not pretty enough and are always in search of "good hair".


On the other hand, there is a predjudice against light skinned women for being "not black enough" which can be very painful for them.  They're often either rejected or fetishized by men and the subject of resentment from women in their own community. An interesting read is the book "Mixed". http://www.amazon.com/Mixed-My-Life-Black-White/dp/0345481143


So it's really a sticky, delicate situation. 


Personally, Zoe Saldana annoys me.  Her latest textbook Hollywood actress attention getting move of declaring "ZOMG You guys, I could totally be bi and I'm totally androgynous!" Left me with zero interest in anything else she had to say.  


 

bunkey

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Report this May. 22 2013, 9:49 am

Somniac

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Report this May. 22 2013, 9:55 am

Food for thought bunkey. Thanks.


I will post back when I have had a chance to read them properly.

bunkey

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POSTS: 686

Report this May. 22 2013, 10:18 am

I look forward to it.


At this point, I don't know what bothers me more about the issue, the actual whitewashing or the fact that (mostly white) Star Trek fans continue to dig up obscure behind the scenes trivia in order to rationalize the casting, such as the first draft of Space Seed named the antagonist as John Erickson, the casting of a Latino was allegedly to please Desi Arnaz, the fact that Montalban was Latino and debating canon despite Khan's obvious origins in Space Seed. I honestly expected more backlash from Trekkies, not the indifferent "well it's happened before..." attitude or actually defending it. It's all over the internet and invariably, when I see something defending it, the profile leads back to a white person.


I'm white and I don't pretend to know anything about the experiences POC go through in life, but I also don't attempt to ignore that institutionalized racism exists.  Racism in itself is an uncomfortable topic and some white people, while not racists themselves, may attempt to avoid the topic or marginalize events such as STID. It's the head in the sand mentality.  But if we don't address issues like this they will continue.

chator56

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Report this May. 22 2013, 5:21 pm

Besides the issue of whitewashing in the casting of Cumberpatch as Khan, there's the issue of the timeline specific to Trek. Orci and Kurtzman have contended in the past that the original timeline in Star Trek didn't deviate before the arrival of the Narada in the 23rd century. If that's the case, then Khan who was of Northern Indian descent and placed into cryosleep in the late 1990s, should have been the same race/ethnicity, whether awoken in the 23rd century by Admiral Marcus, or by James T. Kirk. Yet, there was no attempt to make Cumberpatch look like he was of Northern Indian background, even giving him an American sounding alias that of John Harrison. I don't believe Abrams, Orci, Kurtzman, or Lindelof have any respect even for the pre-Narada Trek timeline. Another example of this is having Kirk born in space on the U.S.S. Kelvin instead of on Earth in Iowa in Star Trek (2009). They attempted to resolve that discrepancy by claiming that Narada's attack on the Kelvin prematurely induced Kirk's mom into labor. Which is a pretty ridiculous explanation.

stovokor2000-A

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Report this May. 22 2013, 7:19 pm

Quote: bunkey @ May. 22 2013, 10:18 am

> or the fact that (mostly white) Star Trek fans continue to dig up obscure behind the scenes trivia in order to rationalize the casting, 

>
what "FACTS" do you have that its "mostly white" fans trying to rationalize the casting?


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stovokor2000-A

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Report this May. 22 2013, 7:28 pm

Quote: chator56 @ May. 22 2013, 5:21 pm

> 1]"then Khan who was of Northern Indian descent and placed into cryosleep in the late 1990s, should have been the same race/ethnicity,"

>2] Another example of this is having Kirk born in space on the U.S.S. Kelvin instead of on Earth in Iowa in Star Trek (2009). They attempted to resolve that discrepancy by claiming that Narada's attack on the Kelvin prematurely induced Kirk's mom into labor. Which is a pretty ridiculous explanation.

>


1] no canon sourse, not even the TOS episode Space seed,.clearly or defintivly indentifies Khan as a Northen Indian decent


2]no canon sourse ever clearly or definitvy states that James,T Kirk was born in Iowa, earth


also, how is the idea that the attck caused his premture birth ridiculous?I have heard of a number of premeture births caused by a number of different events, car accedents, a robbing, a near by shooting, whinning a contest..........


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chator56

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Report this May. 23 2013, 1:02 am

1. In the Space Seed episode Lt. McGivers says, "From Northern India I'd guess, a Sikh."


2. Kirk says he's from Iowa in Star Trek IV


Please provide links to premature births caused by various traumatic events.

OtakuJo

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POSTS: 16362

Report this May. 23 2013, 1:35 am

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/premature-birth/DS00137/DSECTION=risk-factors


Here's one, not to a specific incident, but it does list physical violence or trauma as a potential cause of premature birth. Certainly stress/trauma has been known to cause early births and miscarriages. That said, however, Jim Kirk didn't look like a premie baby.


"from Iowa" doesn't 100% necessarily mean "born in Iowa". (I'm from New Zealand but was born in Melbourne, and have no memory whatever of actually living in the city of my birth.) nu-Kirk probably still tells people that he's from Iowa, because that is his home, whether he was born there or not.


But in any case there is also the possibility that the Kelvin was called out to deal with Nero, whereas its crew might otherwise have been coming back for shore leave, or something. Just speculating, of course.


 


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 23 2013, 3:40 am

1] key word is "i GUESS", LIKE i SAID BEFORE, THATS NOT A CLEAR AND DEFINITIVE IDENTIFICATION


2] yes, he said hes "FROM" Iows, said nothing about being "BORN' there, I am from upstate NY.....But I was BORN in BROOKLYN.


and do you really need such a link? Youhave never herd of such a situation on the news, or from a friend/coworker/family member or other women in your life?


anyway, heres one from my area, 14 week premature birth caused by a hit and run


http://www.13wham.com/mostpopular/story/Nick-Joseph-Verdict-Guilty-on-All-Charges/mhEuanh2lk2HqsDSoFEKUA.cspx


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stovokor2000-A

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Report this May. 23 2013, 3:47 am

Quote: OtakuJo @ May. 23 2013, 1:35 am

> That said, however, Jim Kirk didn't look like a premie baby.


most babies "born" in films dont even look like new borns, wether or not they were supposed to be a prem,ie or a full term birth.


babies born in films always look to be as large as 2 month olds.


my guess thats cause they need to be sure the baby is healthy.


 


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bunkey

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Report this May. 23 2013, 4:56 am

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ May. 22 2013, 7:19 pm

Quote: bunkey @ May. 22 2013, 10:18 am

>what "FACTS" do you have that its "mostly white" fans trying to rationalize the casting?

Because when I see defenses of whitewashing on other websites and click on the profile, the user has been, without fail, white.  If you want "fact" go poke around some social networks and see for your damn self.

1] no canon sourse, not even the TOS episode Space seed,.clearly or defintivly indentifies Khan as a Northen Indian decent


And there's the denial. The reaching for trivial reasons in canon to defend racism.


 A character’s ethnicity doesn’t have to be explicitly stated on screen—free of any plot holes, naming errors, costuming counter-implications, or what have you—in order to be widely considered, and to matter, as a character of color. They don’t have to carry a sign stating “I am [racial and ethnic identity here], ask me for my credentials!”


We are talking about representation. That means we are talking about perception; i.e., what people know about a character before they read Memory Alpha and/or get snarled up in fandom wank.


Sarcasm is my native language.
JJ Abrams is not of the body.

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 23 2013, 5:21 am

Quote: bunkey @ May. 23 2013, 4:56 am

>Because when I see defenses of whitewashing on other websites and click on the profile, the user has been, without fail, white.  If you want "fact" go poke around some social networks and see for your damn self.


no reason to get so defencive, I only asked the question because it seemed odd to me.


never thought of clicking a users profile., 


the other reason I asked is because I am one of those looking for "answers" and I'm not white.


And there's the denial. The reaching for trivial reasons in canon to defend racism.


theres no denial, I'm just posting a solid canon fact.


A character’s ethnicity doesn’t have to be explicitly stated on screen—


it does if your going to claim any changes as a canon violation.This issue is no different then all the fans that claimed a cwnon violation because Nu Kirk had blue eyes, or that nu Spock was shorter.


If a characters ethnicitly is not automaticly indentifiable, and is not only "not stated on screen", but is dilibratly left vague, then you cant claim a canon violation because the director made a change.


your right, we are talking about perceptions.........and that differes from one person to the next.,


and its just not a canon violation.


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