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Why do Zealous Fan Boys Wish for Failure?

OtakuJo

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POSTS: 16362

Report this May. 12 2013, 2:10 pm

Quote: dregj @ May. 12 2013, 10:58 am

>

>if it fails theyll be forced to do something else perhaps re evaulate and make something good, intelligent ,moral and not a 2 hour gaping plot hole with added bad direction

>


I hate to have to say this, but that's wishful thinking. If the movie fails (which is highly unlikely to happen, given its success so far), then Hollywood's future contribution to Trek will be to make nothing.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

WkdYngMan

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Report this May. 12 2013, 8:52 pm

If Enterprise taught us anything, it's that going backwards in Star Trek doesn't work so well.


 


Not necessarily true.


The show barely survived four seasons and it botched canon so much that the only retcon they could come up with was "alternate timeline"


Not true either.


So Paramount says, "Hey let's go backwards again, retcon the ORIGIN of the whole franchise and some of the most beloved characters of all time. What could go wrong?"


And they were right.  Star Trek was the most successful Star Trek film financially, in DVD sales, and critically/reception wise.  "Into Darkness" is on track to beat 2009's box office and is also getting good reviews.

fireproof78

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Report this May. 12 2013, 9:36 pm

If Into Darkness fails to make money, then Paramount will likely shelve Trek and not bother, since Nemisis didn't make them money, Enterprise didn't make them money and this new outing didn't make them money, they will not throw good money after bad. Its the way of business. A product doesn't work, you stop production and make a new product.


I admire people like Crawely and Farragutt films who are able to pull off some decent work with the limits they have and try different things in a TOS setting. But those things are for fans, not the casual viewer. You won't draw in many people if you hold to the same formula that lost ratings and got series cancelled.


Ultimately, my point is this-there is room for both. Abrams Trek isn't perfect and I will never ague that it is. But, I think it is a well done movie and I think it is timely in both reviving the franchise, and introducing new ideas.


To quote James T. Kirk:


Come, come, Mr. Scott. Young minds, fresh ideas. Be tolerant!

leroybrock

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Report this May. 13 2013, 8:06 am

I get the feeling that the real crime committed by the new movies is that it screws up a lot of badly written but deeply cherished fan fiction.

I Am Ultra Narcissus.

Treknoir

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Report this May. 13 2013, 11:59 am

Quote: leroybrock @ May. 13 2013, 8:06 am

>I get the feeling that the real crime committed by the new movies is that it screws up a lot of badly written but deeply cherished fan fiction.


Oh snap!


 


But seriously, I can agree with the poster who was disappointed that TOS characters/plots were revisited instead of something altogether new. I enjoyed ST09 and hope to enjoy STID (although spoiler threads have left me a little disgusted but I plan to still see the film). However, I would have preferred a different way forward for the franchise.


But here's the ULTIMATE truth, Paramount gives jack diddly squat about my feelings and preferences. TPTB care about $$$$$$$$$. They don't go through all of the trouble to make movies/shows out of the goodness of their hearts or to preserve GR's vision of a better tomorrow.


So, I read/purchase/watch what I like and ignore the rest. Maybe discuss/debate issues with other Trekkies. At the end of the day, it's fiction.



It is curious how often you humans manage to obtain that which you do not want. - Spock

Flanaess

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Report this May. 13 2013, 5:46 pm

The alternate timeline would only begin the instant Nero, his ship and crew materialized in the past. Time and Space before that was still Prime Universe.


What I liked about the previous formula is that the characters had their adventures in the alternate universes and the Mirror Universe, then returned home to the Prime Universe, or what we believe is the Prime Universe, as close to 'normal' as possible.


Who knows how much history is changed...


The crew could time travel some time and end up stopping the Big Bang or starting it several million centuries earlier. All things are possible.


There is no reason why any events should repeat, other than to give the audience familiarity.


The could have made everything all new and different.


There could have been only a few crew on Enterprise that we know, or none.


Uhura could have been captain, etc.


Khan could bein it sure, or easily could never have been found.


I think the writers felt that it should mirror the original in all events, people and places, but it does not need to do that every time.


I think that most fans and viewers would love Star Trek (2009) and Star Trek Into Darkness, if they were, instead of films, two part episodes of a regular Star Trek television series.



 


 


 


 


 


 


 


 


 


 


 


 


 

Somniac

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Report this May. 14 2013, 3:30 pm

Uhura as captain would have been truly bringing the franchise into the 21st century.
Too much to hope for.

orlandorays

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Report this May. 15 2013, 12:00 pm

Quote:

Uhura as captain would have been truly bringing the franchise into the 21st century. Too much to hope for.


And I'm sure if it actually did happen, you'd call it pandering. 


I mean, seriously. Rebooting was the only way Star Trek was coming back. It's done. Get over it. If you can't handle that, then just buy Blu-rays of the old stuff.

Somniac

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Report this May. 16 2013, 8:06 am

I don't think you can possibly guess what my reaction would be.


I've just seen STID and I don't think you can guess my reaction to that either.


Or that you'd be interested.


You're too busy grinding your own axe.


Do I smell tar?


yaaawn


What other people think of you is none of your business.

darmokattanagra

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Report this May. 16 2013, 9:32 am

In defense of Enterprise, if you were to judge every series solely on longevity, critical approval, Nielsen ratings and financial success then you'd be forced to conclude that TOS was the worst series of the entire franchise.

fireproof78

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Report this May. 16 2013, 12:09 pm

I think all series had their ups and downs, but Enterprise really had its downs more than ups. It was very frustrating to me to see such potentially good ideas waste away and by the time decent stories came out, it was too late.


TOS had some themes that ran very positively with fans, themes that were not very present in television or society at that time. While an idealized future is nice to picture, our society has changed, and GR recognized that Trek had to change in order to be socially relevant.  Enterprise didn't bother with any social commentary and failed to be relevant. Likewise, Nemesis did the mindless action flick without any human tale of reflection or morality lesson.


I think the fact that we are still discussing Abrams films lends more credence to his success with Trek than any recent film or series.


 

OtakuJo

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Report this May. 16 2013, 2:10 pm

Quote: orlandorays @ May. 15 2013, 12:00 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>Uhura as captain would have been truly bringing the franchise into the 21st century. Too much to hope for.

And I'm sure if it actually did happen, you'd call it pandering. 


No doubt someone would call it that. I mean you must admit, there is a point at which a writer just can't win.


I'm not sure that "Captain Uhura" would have worked.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

OtakuJo

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POSTS: 16362

Report this May. 16 2013, 2:12 pm

Quote: fireproof78 @ May. 16 2013, 12:09 pm

>

> Likewise, Nemesis did the mindless action flick without any human tale of reflection or morality lesson.

>


Not quite true. They did try to explore issues of identity, free will, nature/nurture and all that -- whether they did so successfully is, unfortunately, doubtful.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

KelisThePoet

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Report this May. 16 2013, 2:15 pm

I've actually heard fans of Enterprise claim that other Trek fans should now feel guilty for not supporting that show because the cancellation of Enterprise led to Abrams' movies (obviously, the Enterprise fans who talk this way are no fans of the new movies).


So what if Abrams' movies had not been successful?  What if Into Darkness is not successful?  Could I turn the same guilt-trip argument against the Enterprise fans and others (since I like the new movies and do not particularly love Enterprise): "Because of you, the Star Trek I like disappeared, and you should have supported something you didn't like so that I could keep on enjoying it"?


My point (if I have one) is that I wish people could like what they like and dislike what they dislike without using the popular success of a movie or series to validate their own opinions.  Different versions of Trek and other entertainment come and go, the popular success of different things is a combination of complicated and unpredictable factors, and it makes no sense to get upset because something you like is unpopular or something you dislike is popular.  There's no reason to either support or boycott a movie or television series as if it were a political or moral cause.  If it entertains you, pay for it.  If not, don't.  It should be about what you want to watch and pay for, not about using your financial support to browbeat (or try to browbeat) someone else into changing his or her mind.


Falor was a prosperous merchant who went on a journey to gain greater awareness: Through storms he crossed the Voroth Sea/ To reach the clouded shores of Raal/ Where old T’Para offered truth./ He traveled through the windswept hills/ And crossed the barren Fire Plains/ To find the silent monks of Kir./ Still unfulfilled, he journeyed home/ Told stories of the lessons learned/ And gained true wisdom by the giving. – Falor’s Journey, “Innocence”

Somniac

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Report this May. 16 2013, 2:27 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ May. 16 2013, 2:10 pm

Quote: orlandorays @ May. 15 2013, 12:00 pm

>

>

>And I'm sure if it actually did happen, you'd call it pandering. 

>

No doubt someone would call it that. I mean you must admit, there is a point at which a writer just can't win.

I'm not sure that "Captain Uhura" would have worked.


 


No I agree really. But that seems to me to be largely because the new films seem to continue the TOS tradition of female characters being present for eye candy and romantic interest and not much else.


That is one original tradition that I personally could do without. Ironically it is one that has been retained.


That tradition changed somewhat with TNG DS9 and certainly Voyager and the movies but has reverted in the last two.


What other people think of you is none of your business.

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