ATTENTION: The Boards will be closed permanently on May 28th, 2014. Posting will be disabled on April 28th, 2014. More Info

In Memoriam: British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46314

Report this Apr. 08 2013, 11:09 am

I am quite saddened to see that Margaret Thatcher died today.  I was a teen when she was the Prime Minister and taught me that freedom wasn't just an American concept, but one that was universally desired.


 


She taught us that "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" and that, "A man's right to work as he will, to spend what he earns, to own property, to have the state as servant and not as master, they are the essence of a free economy, and on that freedom all our other freedoms depend.


 


I will always remember her and what she stood for.

DS9TREK

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 14322

Report this Apr. 08 2013, 3:24 pm

Hear, hear.

Kornula

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1676

Report this Apr. 08 2013, 10:31 pm

Sings..


"DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD!"

Ne vem

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 40

Report this Apr. 09 2013, 11:54 am

The problem with socialism was that it was called socialism and she hated it.


It seems strange that you're on a Star Trek board and yet you feel some kind of kinship towards a leader who ripped the working class to pieces and slashed benefits just like the Tories are still doing now. I'm not having a go, it just seems strange that Trek fans would support this kind of person. She's like a Ferengi mixed with a Borg. Greedy, implacable, made of metal etc.


What's so bad about socialism anyway?


Socialism lets 'a man' do all the things Thatcher mentioned...he can own property, earn his own money, live free etc. Okay, he couldn't start his own airline or run the post office, but who's doing that in the UK now? Li Ka Shing owns one of the utilities in the UK, can't remember which one, and the others are all run by billionaires who were already rich and friendly with Thatcher when she privatised everything. Now they're getting richer, and people on benefits are accused of being 'scroungers' and offered intiatives where they work for free [i.e. slavery]. Does this seem fair?


Also, Socialism doesn't mean Communism. Far as I can tell, capitalism still functions under socialism. A man can still own his own house, he can spend money how he likes, he can start his own business. The difference with capitalism under the conservatives is: the wealth gap isn't allowed to grow so wide. The rich are kept in check more with socialism and aren't over-rewarded.  This is why they hate socialism, it limits their income. Poor richies.


It annoys me when people equate the super rich with hard work. They may have worked hard if they started poor, but once you attain a certain level of wealth it becomes simple to keep and expand it [unless you go to casinos a lot!]. In Hong Kong, the rich can simply buy property then rent it for crazy prices. It's not hard, anyone could do it, if they had the startup cash.


I don't know why I'm writing all this...I hate debating politics, it never ends well. But really, Thatcher was great if you were from the South East of the UK, or you were rich, but for the rest of the country, she was a monster. 


 


Why does no-one in Trek make zines?

Ne vem

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 40

Report this Apr. 09 2013, 12:02 pm

To be fair, at least half of that rant was responding to nothing written on this board.


Why does no-one in Trek make zines?

fireproof78

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 342

Report this Apr. 09 2013, 9:21 pm

Kornula

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1676

Report this Apr. 10 2013, 1:06 am

It makes my heart soar to hear that many Britis are dancing in the street over the news of the bitches death.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46314

Report this Apr. 10 2013, 5:28 pm

Quote: fireproof78 @ Apr. 09 2013, 9:21 pm

T'Paul

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 75

Report this Apr. 10 2013, 10:52 pm

She was a close supporter of the openly fascist dictator Auguste Pinochet who deposed an elected leader by force and then instituted an extermination program that assassinated thousands of people for their views, and she supported apartheid in South Africa even calling Nelson Mandela a terrorist. She was a war hawk and an imperialist. At home, under her leadership, for the first time anywhere in western world since the Depression, the poor got poorer. Unemployment skyrocketed as she gave handouts to the rich. 


Her people are in the streets toasting to her roasting in Hell.


She did inspire hundreds of great band and songs against her. Maybe we should thank her for that.

T'Paul

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 75

Report this Apr. 11 2013, 12:06 am

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Apr. 08 2013, 11:09 am

>

>I am quite saddened to see that Margaret Thatcher died today.  I was a teen when she was the Prime Minister and taught me that freedom wasn't just an American concept, but one that was universally desired.

>She taught us that "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" and that, "A man's right to work as he will, to spend what he earns, to own property, to have the state as servant and not as master, they are the essence of a free economy, and on that freedom all our other freedoms depend.

>I will always remember her and what she stood for.

>


You thought that freedom was an American concept? American meaning native American? Everyone has a basic concept of freedom. To address your assertion, the native Americans  certainly had personal property, but they didn't use capitalism, and the notion of private ownership over basic resources by any one person was rightly regarded as a form of theft. So, you couldnt have meant the native Americans. 


I think you actually mean the good old capitalist European folks who came here with their slaves and committed genocide, all in the name of real estate and resources, all in capitalism. So, you being a continuation of their lineage, naturally, you believe no other people on Earth know what freedom is, you being better than everyone else? Is that the context we need here?


Maybe you've never stopped to think that if everyone had maximum personal liberty, it would ultimately mean that nobody has freedom, because under such circumstances everyone would be free to do to others as they wished, murder, rape, imprison, etc. Therefore when we talk about freedom, we are talking about our right to act only in relation to other people. It is only in relation to other people that we have any concept of freedom; if you were always alone it wouldn't matter what you did and so the concept of freedom would never even cross your mind.


If we involve capitalism, many special considerations need be made concerning freedom because it establishes hierachies through the monopolization of basic economic resources. So, the ideal condition for freedom would include neither state or private ownership over such resources, neither socialism or capitalism, but direct ownership by the people. That's anarchism and it is very much like what the native Americans had for their societies.


Thatcher's statement on socialism is inane propaganda. What she was referring to were social democratic programs in a capitalist system. She wasn't referring to socialism at all, actually. Especially in a capitalist system, workers have the right to such earned benefit programs. Moreover, her regime created very high unemployment rates, higher than say in Cuba, and she was well aware of it. 

DeeBee Ortiz

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 10

Report this Apr. 11 2013, 12:47 am

She was a great lady. 


To the Undiscovered Country...


*salutes*


"...nowhere am I so desperately needed as among a shipload of illogical humans."

DS9TREK

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 14322

Report this Apr. 11 2013, 6:33 am

Quote: Ne vem @ Apr. 09 2013, 11:54 am

>

>What's so bad about socialism anyway?

>


Everything. It's the creed of greed and envy.


 


Thank goodness Maggie killed it off for all time.

DS9TREK

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 14322

Report this Apr. 11 2013, 6:34 am

Quote: Kornula @ Apr. 08 2013, 10:31 pm

>

>Sings..

>"DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD!"

>


Why u mad though?


Oh right she beat the left every single time.

T'Paul

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 75

Report this Apr. 11 2013, 2:01 pm

Quote: DS9TREK @ Apr. 11 2013, 6:34 am

Quote: Kornula @ Apr. 08 2013, 10:31 pm

>

>

>Sings..

>"DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD!"

>

Why u mad though?

Oh right she beat the left every single time.


What about the time she tried to replace household property taxes with a flat "poll tax" and was defeated by a massive popular demonstration in Trafalgar Square?

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46314

Report this Apr. 11 2013, 2:14 pm

Quote: T'Paul @ Apr. 11 2013, 12:06 am

>You thought that freedom was an American concept?
As I explained, I was a kid at the time.  I didn't know much about the rest of the world until Thatcher.  If you think about it.... how much world history does a youngster in the USA even get outside the major events like World Wars, etc.  Most of what I knew about European government was that they were almost all ran by monarchies - pretty much the opposite of liberty.  Even now, how many leaders do we know in the world that truly support liberty?

Forum Permissions

You cannot post new topics in this forum

You cannot reply to topics in this forum

You cannot delete posts in this forum