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Endgame....what really gets me...

starlisa

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 163

Report this May. 30 2013, 3:55 pm

I respect many of the points you raise too. Seven is a very complex character, neither fully human or fully Borg. I personally don't see that it was necessary to introduce romance for her at all. She still had a way to go in her own development, in assessing her own needs, before she could take into account someone else's. You're right, she had shown profound maturity at times, but I'm still not convinced she had the emotional maturity/understanding of an adult. One of her major arcs was the recovering of her humanity, so this would need to be fully recovered before she was ready for a relationship, imo.  I certainly don't think it was necessary to have Chakotay suddenly, inexplicably, reciprocate her feelings in the very last episode when hopes were high (amongst some of us) that finally we would get the J/C moment we had waited for. This may, perhaps, cloud the feelings of many of us towards C/7. We loved J/C, we rooted for J/C, so we will never accept C/7.


That said, C/7 (as portrayed) did make me uncomfortable. Even if we put aside Chakotay's age (he was born in 2329, making him 48/9 in Endgame (2378), the First Officer of the ship would have to be very careful who he got involved with. Surely there were other women who had developed feelings for him over the seven years, B'Elanna for one, but he never got involved with them. If he'd never thought of Seven in a romantic/sexual sense, then he wasn't shallow enough to date her just because she is good looking and was showing some interest. He would have to feel it was the right thing to do. Maybe he would discuss it with Janeway. Especially if we're supposed to believe his relationship with Janeway was purely platonic by this point. But he didn't. He got involved with her without any reservations whatsoever and that's out of character for me. I can understand why Seven would find him attractive, but a relationship has to be a two way street, and we never got any indication ever that Chakotay saw her in a romantic light.


I don't like C/7, and I don't believe it does the characters justice, but if others feel differently, that's ok

KelisThePoet

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 636

Report this May. 30 2013, 7:02 pm

I think Chakotay didn't talk with Janeway about it because their relationship was more than a platonic friendship, even though they were avoiding romantic involvement with each other.


In any event, I prefer that to the way Troi and Riker would awkwardly talk with each other about relationships with other people from time to time.


Falor was a prosperous merchant who went on a journey to gain greater awareness: Through storms he crossed the Voroth Sea/ To reach the clouded shores of Raal/ Where old T’Para offered truth./ He traveled through the windswept hills/ And crossed the barren Fire Plains/ To find the silent monks of Kir./ Still unfulfilled, he journeyed home/ Told stories of the lessons learned/ And gained true wisdom by the giving. – Falor’s Journey, “Innocence”

warp speed

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POSTS: 24

Report this Jun. 01 2013, 11:26 am

Quote: christina.miracle @ Mar. 23 2013, 6:03 pm

>I have a love-hate relationship with this episode. I think the basic idea and execution of the finale was great and near perfect. I have two small issues with it though. One, I still feel a little cheated and sad to see the end of this wonderful series. I can imagine a lot of other Voyager fans feel the same way. Even though some critics dislike that Janeway took matters into her own hands and completely went against everything Starfleet stood for, I loved the ending. I mean to end the series with Voyager not making it back or making it back without its core crew would have left everyone feeling cheated. The second issue I have is much shallower than the first. Chakotay and Seven...no way am I buying that. That relationship is the only thing that just doesn't fit. I am forever going to feel like that was just wrong. Janeway should have been with Chakotay! Heck I could have settle on Chakotay with anyone else or Janeway with some else or them never admitting their attraction...but not Chakotay and Seven! I just watched "Resolutions" and it reminded me of how irritating the thought of Chakotay and Seven being together is. Am I the only one who feels this  way?


Voyager is my favorite spin off of the original series. Janeway felt personally responsible for stranding her people in the Delta Quadrant. I believe she would have disobeyed orders to save the lives of as many crew members as she could. Especially the lives of those closest to her. As far as Chakotay and Seven in previous episodes he had helped her to develope her interpersoonal skills. I believe that's when the two of them started their relationship. I also don't think the writers wanted the Captain and First Officer to have a romantic relationship while piloting the ship. No insult meant to Kate Mulgrew but Jeri Ryan is gorgeous. Just another reason why I liked to watch Voyager.

starfan97

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POSTS: 235

Report this Jun. 02 2013, 3:15 pm

Just one thing: They never finished it.


They left sooo many things open. I think it was good, but they needed to coninue it more. They never even saw Earth!!

willowtree

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1137

Report this Jun. 03 2013, 5:52 am

Quote: warp speed @ Jun. 01 2013, 11:26 am

Quote: christina.miracle @ Mar. 23 2013, 6:03 pm

>

>I have a love-hate relationship with this episode. I think the basic idea and execution of the finale was great and near perfect. I have two small issues with it though. One, I still feel a little cheated and sad to see the end of this wonderful series. I can imagine a lot of other Voyager fans feel the same way. Even though some critics dislike that Janeway took matters into her own hands and completely went against everything Starfleet stood for, I loved the ending. I mean to end the series with Voyager not making it back or making it back without its core crew would have left everyone feeling cheated. The second issue I have is much shallower than the first. Chakotay and Seven...no way am I buying that. That relationship is the only thing that just doesn't fit. I am forever going to feel like that was just wrong. Janeway should have been with Chakotay! Heck I could have settle on Chakotay with anyone else or Janeway with some else or them never admitting their attraction...but not Chakotay and Seven! I just watched "Resolutions" and it reminded me of how irritating the thought of Chakotay and Seven being together is. Am I the only one who feels this  way?

Voyager is my favorite spin off of the original series. Janeway felt personally responsible for stranding her people in the Delta Quadrant. I believe she would have disobeyed orders to save the lives of as many crew members as she could. Especially the lives of those closest to her. As far as Chakotay and Seven in previous episodes he had helped her to develope her interpersoonal skills. I believe that's when the two of them started their relationship. I also don't think the writers wanted the Captain and First Officer to have a romantic relationship while piloting the ship. No insult meant to Kate Mulgrew but Jeri Ryan is gorgeous. Just another reason why I liked to watch Voyager.


The Doctor helped Seven develop her personal skills, not Chakotay

willowtree

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POSTS: 1137

Report this Jun. 03 2013, 5:58 am

Quote: starfan97 @ Jun. 02 2013, 3:15 pm

>

>Just one thing: They never finished it.

>They left sooo many things open. I think it was good, but they needed to coninue it more. They never even saw Earth!!

>


I think it was as finished as they could make it for a tv show, if they spend antohter half hour just explainin what happned to everyone it could have been boring.....even thoug i'd love to know myself.


asside from the personal stuff like Tom and B'Elanna establishing relationships with their fathers, there's also the fact that a large number of Voyager's crew are traiters of the Federation. And what about the Equinox crew, what does Starfleet do with them?


I think it's safe to assume that the technoloy from the future is not used by the federation....if it was we most likely would have seen it in Nemesis on the Enterpirse (if any ship would get that technology it would be the flagship)

lynny

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POSTS: 11

Report this Jun. 10 2013, 5:13 pm

I agree with the post made by starfan on 4/6.  I needed more too. Not just BOOM, whe're home!  I got closure by reading the novelization Endgame by Diane Carey and Homecoming book 1 & 2 by Christine Golden.  While the books are not Canon they gave me closure.    After reading these books and reviewing the episodes that showed Seven and Chakotay begin their romance I think they did make a good pair.  I always thought a Janeway-Chakotay romance was forced.  They made a much better couple as Captain and First Officer.  Just my opinion of course.

JoCat

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 156

Report this Jun. 21 2013, 10:15 pm

I also did not like that last episode. When I saw Voyager's pilot episode when they first get lost in the Delta Quadrant, I was enthralled by the show; they had my interest, hook,, line, and sinker. So, I hung in there for 7 years to see the great series finale of how they get back home. I was in a serious mood for a great, suspenseful, nail-biting, and even some tears in that last episode. I mean SERIOUSLY, for 7 years I let all this great anticpation of it build up inside of me. SO, I got my popcorn, plopped down on the couch FULLY PREPARED to be in wonderful suspense for 2 glorious hours as this great finale slowily reveals if and how they all made it home. I expected to see an epic battle of some sort with Voyager nearly falling apart as the crew worked with all their might to make it home. So this great episode, gets started. Lo and behold within the first few moments, there's janeway already home and shortly after that it is revaled that Voyager had ALREADY returned home. No more mystery there. The suspense and anticipation which I had garnered over 7 years just vanished in no time flat. Oh, I was so crushed.!!!! After that I just didn't care for the rest of the show. And I have never watched that episode again as it still greatly bothers me.

willowtree

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POSTS: 1137

Report this Jun. 25 2013, 5:42 am

what do you mean? Do you mean you only watched the first 10 minutes and that's it? What was in the beginning was a glimse into 30 years into the future.

buchworm

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POSTS: 503

Report this Jul. 07 2013, 5:59 pm

I agree that the Chakotay/Seven relationship was much too fast.  And as for Seven, herself, I understand that the Doctor was deactivating some of her implants so that she could experience more emotion, but I didn't like that in the finale she is all of a sudden practically melting sugar.  I also agree that Janeway/Chakotay and Doctor/Seven would have been better.

Captain Plunjer

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POSTS: 33

Report this Aug. 28 2013, 10:11 pm

my belief with all the trek captains is there 1st love willalways be there starship... that love is part of what makes them the captains ... but they already let the cat out of the bag with Janeway and Chakotay on that epsiode where they were stranded on that planet with the disease.... if Voyager would have come back for them just a few days later.. they would have went to bed together.


from that moment on, if there was goig to be an affair for either of them.. it should had been with each other... thats where the relationship was leading. 


 


It was a let down to see it turn out differently.

Anime Odo

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POSTS: 209

Report this Sep. 24 2013, 7:27 pm

Ahhhh Captain Plunjer that was so deep.


"I don't believe in luck, but I appreciate the sentiment." - Odo

bethanyevans19

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POSTS: 2

Report this Oct. 18 2013, 10:31 am

I'm a Voyager fan, through and through, and so I stand behind what the writers cam up with, even when I felt like they weren't honoring the characters or the plot. But Endgame? Hmmph. Big disappointment. Everyone gets turned upside down and there is no warning for it. C/7 was actually a pairing I liked, but they didn't lead up to it enough. "Natural Law" was the only episode that even touched on them starting to be friends. And then boom, a few episodes later, they're an item. I liked their chemistry and felt like given some more screen time they could have been a favored Star Trek couple. The perfect Borg and the spiritual Maquis has a nice ring to it in my opinion. But they didn't invest in that relationship and it showed. 


I never wanted Janeway and Chakotay to be together because I truly think they were better as friends. The love the two of them had was always best being platonic. I agree that they should have ended their friendship with a touching moment, they deserved at least that much. The shrug off for a lunch date was a direct dismissal of what they meant to each other and I for one, even though I didn't want them to be together romantically, felt they deserved more.


And then there are the other characters. Neelix we see last in a transmission with Seven, who says she'll contact him again, and we never see him again! Talk about a brush off. Tom never gets to see his baby or have a touching last moment with B'Lanna, the three of them together, which I personally was hoping for.


There is the finality for Kim, the Doctor, or Tuvok. Overall, after spending seven years with excellent plot and character development, it's like they gave up. Very sad indeed. I choose to write my own version of Endagme now and I like it much better.


 

miklamar

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POSTS: 2154

Report this Oct. 25 2013, 11:51 pm

You ought to read Una McCormack's Full Circle series , about Voyager's future mission.


Var Miklama--Zakdorn, engineer. "A sound mind in a FULL body!" "Time, like latinum, is a limited quantity in the galaxy."

lnagr1

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POSTS: 1403

Report this Oct. 28 2013, 3:56 am

I must agree with the people who thought the Chakotay/seven thing felt a bit forced. I mean, where did it even come  from?


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