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Endgame....what really gets me...

Holo

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Report this Apr. 13 2013, 8:55 pm

Quote: christina.miracle @ Apr. 13 2013, 5:31 pm

>I feel like she changed history for more than just Seven. What about Tuvok? Had he gotten home sooner he could be cured of the degenerative neurological disorder he had. Tuvok was very dear to her. Chakotay also dies shortly after returning because of being hurt over losing Seven.


Whether she did it to save one person or a thousand people is irrelevent. As a Starfleet officer, she knows the risks of playing with the timeline. Imagine if the Borg in the past got a hold of that shuttle. Or if Chakotay were the next Edith Keeler. Her actions have consequences for BILLIONS of lives, not only in the Alpha Quadrant, but everywhere Voyager would have gone in that 26 years.

starlisa

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Report this Apr. 14 2013, 3:35 pm

I know what you mean, Christina. The reason Endgame bugs me so much is because I love Voyager and feel cheated of an ending. Had there been no C/7 in it, then the series would be near perfect to me too. But I can't relate to much of anything in the finale because of that relationship. J/C would have been far more inkeeping with the series. I will never understand why, when they knew how popular they are, they decided to pair him with someone else in the very last episode.  But the tptb know it was a mistake, which is why it was dropped in the books, and I guess everything happens for a reason. I still wish we had got J/C though.

christina.miracle

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Report this Apr. 20 2013, 5:11 pm

I just watched the episode "Shattered"....and it just keeps bringing up this issue for me. At the end of the episode just before they brought Voyager back into time sync, Janeway asked Chakotay about how close they got. It just killed me when he says they didn't cross some barriers. That should have the green light for that to change when he got back. Dang them writers for screwing with their relationship....grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.......

Chief Warrant Officer
Finn

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Report this Apr. 24 2013, 10:56 am

It seemed rushed.  I think they should have split it up in a 4 episode arch, and finished it gracefully.  I immediately read Homecoming when it came out because I really, really wanted to know what happened.

willowtree

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Report this Apr. 24 2013, 11:39 am

Endgame could have been done without the time travel element. It would have required a tiny plot change and the same basic story would be the same.


It would just require Seven knowing ahead of time that there was a hub in there. At that point they could have com up with some story to get them through all those borg ships and into the nebula. for example enlisting the help of the freed borg from unimatrix zero

KelisThePoet

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Report this Apr. 24 2013, 12:51 pm

But Seven did not "end up" with Chakotay.  They did not get married (apart from events in an alternate timeline).  They did not even have a serious, long-term relationship.  They went on a handful of dates.


Falor was a prosperous merchant who went on a journey to gain greater awareness: Through storms he crossed the Voroth Sea/ To reach the clouded shores of Raal/ Where old T’Para offered truth./ He traveled through the windswept hills/ And crossed the barren Fire Plains/ To find the silent monks of Kir./ Still unfulfilled, he journeyed home/ Told stories of the lessons learned/ And gained true wisdom by the giving. – Falor’s Journey, “Innocence”

Ultra Trek

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Report this May. 07 2013, 3:16 pm

Well, you have to examine this:


Endgame was the "All Good Things," of Voyager. It had the future, the combadge from, "All Good Things," however, VOY, and, TNG both had really good end episodes. This was because, as far as the series goes, they could have kept TNG going, however, it was time for a TNG movie. It became extremely popular, and needed a movie, although, VOY was a great series. It could have had a movie. However, VOY, not having a movie, and, being a show like DS9, featuring not the Enterprise, but, Deep Space Nine, and Voyager. VOY just needed to get home, and, that was what happened. They didn't have a movie, simply because, they did what they were trying to do. However, with TNG, they needed to do a movie, because, they had a mission of boldly going where no one has gone before, which is their legacy. VOY succeeded in their mission which was to get home.


You lied? I implied.

48GOAT

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Report this May. 29 2013, 9:29 am

Being a die-hard fan, I may be biased, but I also contemplate things on a deeper level. I more or less stand by what so many others argue about because I feel I have a better understanding. 


First of all, Chakotay is a very spiritual person, and thats one of the things a borg regaining her humanity would need in her devlopment. He is by far the kindest and most considerate person she could want in a companion. As for pairing him with Janeway, that wouldn't be good because they have a bond that was founded in friendship and loyalty and trust that he would be at her side to be of service to her as first officer, as things were when he vowed to himself, and not risk this by changing the parameters of their relationship. However, being a commanding officer to Seven, its more suitable because he'd take her under his wing both in duty and personal development, so his professional relationship seemed better suited for them to pursue a deeper attachment. And even then, Chakotay remained aware enough of the differences to distinguish between the two when addressing her.


 


The Borg being reduced to wimps? No, the Borg never changed. They just had a more worthy opponent with the Voyager crew.  The potential for defeating or surviving interaction with Borg has a LOT to do with technological know-how. That means you want the most tech-minded people, like engineers, vulcans, androids - those that give the captain the most options and ability to make the most out of what technological resources they have. So TOS had a Vulcan, TNG had Data, Geordi, and for a while, O'Brien. DS9 had O'Brien, Bashir, and who else? Voyager's crew - a Vulcan, The Captain (science is her thing), B'Elanna - one of the best engineers ever, Kim, The Dr, and then a Borg - more or less twice as many ppl with elite familiarity with advanced science & technology. This is a crew that would get the most out of what a ship is capable of.


As for the ending of Voyager, what are they going to do, add another half-hr glimpse into life on Earth? It would take a while to 'set the stage' and then of course the fact there's Maquis who are wanted by Starfleet, debriefing, handing out promotions and medals, reuinions with families.. You're looking at a LOT more to satisfy an extension just to show 'once they returned' events. Leaving it all to the imagination is probably better than taking a weak & insufficient stab at it. Sure we'd love for them to cover everything, but whatever - they simply didnt have another half an episode to do it in.

willowtree

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Report this May. 29 2013, 12:27 pm

^^WELL SAID!!

bunkey

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Report this May. 29 2013, 4:22 pm

Disclosure: VOY is my least favorite show and I haven't seen every episode.


That being said, on the topic  of Janeway/Chakotay, I'm very glad they never ended up together. To me, it would have been out of character for a captain to get involved with her first officer. I think that would have reflected badly on Star Trek's first female captain. (I never liked the fact that she was engaged while the two previous captains were married to their ships, either.)  I liked the platonic relationships DS9 nurtured, Sisko/Dax Sisko/Kira.  I think having Janeway hook up with Chakotay would have been cliche.


I also didn't like the finale.  Again, I havent seen every episode, but I've seen a lot.  Janeway did seem kind of out of character, even for a captain who compromised as many rules as she did to survive.  

starlisa

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Report this May. 29 2013, 5:11 pm

Quote: 48GOAT @ May. 29 2013, 9:29 am

>

>First of all, Chakotay is a very spiritual person, and thats one of the things a borg regaining her humanity would need in her devlopment. He is by far the kindest and most considerate person she could want in a companion. As for pairing him with Janeway, that wouldn't be good because they have a bond that was founded in friendship and loyalty and trust that he would be at her side to be of service to her as first officer, as things were when he vowed to himself, and not risk this by changing the parameters of their relationship. However, being a commanding officer to Seven, its more suitable because he'd take her under his wing both in duty and personal development, so his professional relationship seemed better suited for them to pursue a deeper attachment. And even then, Chakotay remained aware enough of the differences to distinguish between the two when addressing her.

>


Janeway and Chakotay's relationship had always been quasi-romantic, so for them to "change the parameters" when they got home would have been a natural evolution. C/7 came out of nowhere and was  totally unbelieveable to me. Even if Seven had developed feelings for him, as indicated in Human Error, I think Chakotay would have had serious reservations about getting involved with her. I believe he would only have done so if he truly loved her. I don't believe he would have gone on "dates" with her. But there had never been any indication that he loved her. They had never even been friends. The whole thing was disappointingly immature to me. I truly did expect better.

KelisThePoet

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Report this May. 29 2013, 9:22 pm

You say you don't believe Chakotay would have gone on dates with Seven--and I presume you put the term "dates" within quotation marks in order to call the term in question--but in the episode itself, both Chakotay and Seven refer to the time they are spending together as dates.  So are you saying that you don't believe the dating portrayed in "Endgame" is in character for Seven and Chakotay, or are you questioning the way those characters describe the time they're spending together?


I find your argument odd that Chakotay would only spend this kind of time with Seven if he already "truly loved her."  In the real world, people engage in the kind of social activities Seven and Chakotay initiate--call those activities dating or whatever else you will--to nurture and explore initial feelings of attraction that might develop into so-called true love, or else just to have fun in a way that usually involves some level of attraction.  Surely, not everyone waits to start dating until they truly love the person they date.  And there's no reason to believe that dating works differently, that people only date people they truly love in the 24th century.  Nor is there any reason to believe that Chakotay is more reticent than most men to flirt with and date women.  I guess you could argue that Chakotay would be more guarded with Seven than with other women, but what would be the evidence from the show for that argument?


Falor was a prosperous merchant who went on a journey to gain greater awareness: Through storms he crossed the Voroth Sea/ To reach the clouded shores of Raal/ Where old T’Para offered truth./ He traveled through the windswept hills/ And crossed the barren Fire Plains/ To find the silent monks of Kir./ Still unfulfilled, he journeyed home/ Told stories of the lessons learned/ And gained true wisdom by the giving. – Falor’s Journey, “Innocence”

starlisa

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Report this May. 30 2013, 4:29 am

Well, imo, a responsible and mature man would not get involved with an emotionally vulnerable woman unless he was sure about his feelings for her. Chakotay was responsible and mature, wasn't he? Seven was not like every other woman on the ship. She was, in so many ways, a child in a woman's body (which, if I'm honest, raises the question of how moral it was for Trek to make her a sex object in the first place) and still had a tremendous amount of personal growth to do. She was assimilated at about six, then liberated as an adult woman. That was a huge gap in anyone's development. Her years as a drone don't count as development because she was not thinking for herself. By Endgame she has only been developing for four years and still can't feel a full range of emotions (until the Doctor does the operation). Yet, by this point, she is romantically involved with the ship's First Officer, who has no reservations at all about their relationship. He even has to be reminded by her not to mix the personal and professional by changing duty rostas. This was not the Chakotay I knew and loved.


Imo, any responsible man would not say "Seven fancies me, therefore I will go on dates with her to see what happens". Yes, this is what happens in the real world, and of course it is the natural way to go about finding a partner, but when one party is vulnerable, then the other often has reservations. For example, Gloria Estefan's husband, who was somewhat older than her, said that he would never have got involved with her (even though he had had lots of women before) unless he was sure of his feelings for her, because she was emotionally vulnerable and he didn't want to break her heart, which could destroy her.


That is my opinion. I believe it is in character for Seven to go on dates, it's a natural part of becoming aware of one's sexuality, and men less mature than Chakotay would probably jump at the chance, but I don't believe Chakotay would. Seven had, at best, the emotional maturity of a teenager. Chakotay was almost 50 years of age. A man of that age, unless he is totally immature and irresponsible (some would say a sleaze)  would not even consider a relationship with a teenager. If he had come to love her, because circumstances had made it such, even then most responsible men would have reservations and only get involved with a teenager if he was not only sure of his feelings but of hers.


Yes, Seven looks like a mature woman in her late twenties, because that's what Jeri Ryan was (if she wasn't older), but mentally Seven wasn't, and Chakotay would be very aware of that. I think he would also consider how their romance would affect his relationship with Janeway, given Janeway's role in mentoring her.  I believe he would not embark on the relationship lightly and would have many, many reservations. So no, I don't believe the Chakotay we saw in Endgame was in character at all. He was a better man than that.

willowtree

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Report this May. 30 2013, 7:41 am

Quote: starlisa @ May. 29 2013, 5:11 pm

Quote: 48GOAT @ May. 29 2013, 9:29 am

>

>

>First of all, Chakotay is a very spiritual person, and thats one of the things a borg regaining her humanity would need in her devlopment. He is by far the kindest and most considerate person she could want in a companion. As for pairing him with Janeway, that wouldn't be good because they have a bond that was founded in friendship and loyalty and trust that he would be at her side to be of service to her as first officer, as things were when he vowed to himself, and not risk this by changing the parameters of their relationship. However, being a commanding officer to Seven, its more suitable because he'd take her under his wing both in duty and personal development, so his professional relationship seemed better suited for them to pursue a deeper attachment. And even then, Chakotay remained aware enough of the differences to distinguish between the two when addressing her.

>

Janeway and Chakotay's relationship had always been quasi-romantic, so for them to "change the parameters" when they got home would have been a natural evolution. C/7 came out of nowhere and was  totally unbelieveable to me. Even if Seven had developed feelings for him, as indicated in Human Error, I think Chakotay would have had serious reservations about getting involved with her. I believe he would only have done so if he truly loved her. I don't believe he would have gone on "dates" with her. But there had never been any indication that he loved her. They had never even been friends. The whole thing was disappointingly immature to me. I truly did expect better.


most people start dating before they fall in love...that's how you fall in love you get to know the person on your dates.


as far as J/C she had always made it clear that she would not be involved with someone under her command. Chakotay did the smart and healthy thing and moved onto someone else.


Yes the C/7 romance kind of came out of nowhere, but we only really saw their second date. It's not like they were already in an established commited relationship.


But I do feel like they could have set them up better. We watched Tom and B'elanna develop a flirtation, become friends, go on some dates and finally get married. If they had shown chakotay and Seven at least sitting next to each other or having a dinne together or something first it might  have been an easier pill to swallow

KelisThePoet

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Report this May. 30 2013, 2:27 pm

starlisa, I think you raise a good point about Seven's vulnerability.  Childlike vulnerability was definitely a part of her character; but on the other hand, she also sometimes displayed unusual strength and maturity for a person of any age.  And I don't think it's fair to think of her as a child or a teenager in an adult's body anymore than it's fair to think of her as a typical human adult.  In the Star Trek universe, a universe with species of different lifespans, borg maturation chambers, etc. different entities mature at different rates.  None of it's realistic by our standards of experience, so you just have to go with the premise as its presented, which in this case seems to be an adult woman with some childlike traits and some Borg traits.  Also, I never thought of Chakotay as being around 50 years old, but I honestly don't know on that one.


For me, the deciding factor is that Seven initiated the relationship (strongly implied if not directly stated some place I've forgotten).  Had Chakotay considered initiating the relationship first, I agree he would probably have been wise not to act on his desire or at least to consider it carefully, given Seven's unique vulnerability.  But once she approached him, how could he hurt her most?  By engaging in some fun, semi-formal social activities with admittedly somewhat high emotional stakes?  Or by condescendingly turning her down for her own good and treating her like a child because he supposedly knows what's best for her?


She's survived assimilation, reverse-assimilation, confronting her father as an assimilated drone, being manipulated by the borg queen, facing responsibility for the death of three drones she assimilated out of fear, the sacrifice of the borg drone "One," who was like a son to her, etc., etc.  And she emerged from all these emotional trials as a confident, independent and compassionate woman.  If at that point, she felt ready to explore the early stages of human attraction and romantic relationships, I don't think it was Chakotay's place to protect her from the dangers of a picnic or a nice dinner.


Falor was a prosperous merchant who went on a journey to gain greater awareness: Through storms he crossed the Voroth Sea/ To reach the clouded shores of Raal/ Where old T’Para offered truth./ He traveled through the windswept hills/ And crossed the barren Fire Plains/ To find the silent monks of Kir./ Still unfulfilled, he journeyed home/ Told stories of the lessons learned/ And gained true wisdom by the giving. – Falor’s Journey, “Innocence”

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