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The Good, the Bad, and the Abrams

Gawain_VIII

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Report this Mar. 01 2013, 1:02 pm

Quote: fireproof78 @ Mar. 01 2013, 9:16 am

>Well, sto-vo-kor mentioned it, but I think that Kirk was already a lieutenant, given his current course work at the Academy. We see similar precedent with Saavik in Wrath of Khan, as she is addressed as lieutenant and not cadet, and is able to be placed in charge of the bridge.


Unfortunately, that suggestion is not supported by dialog heard in the film. Kirk is an suspended cadet, unable to graduate until after an academic hearing, at the time of the attack.  He is addressed as "Cadet", "Mister", or without title and never as "Lieutenant" or any other rank throughout the entire movie until the point at which he assumes command.


It is reasonable that he would have been a Lieutenant upon graduation if that had happened. In today's real-world military, upon completion of a comissioning program, a cadet will normally become an O-1 (Ens./2Lt.) but could concievably be comissioned as an O-2 (LtJG/1Lt) with prior enlisted service and/or a Master's degree. It is typical for professional degrees (Law, Medical, Chaplain, etc.) to begin their comission as an O-3 (Lieut./Capt.).


This understanding of how real-world militaries work lend SOME credence as to why you have 5 main-cast, 4 of which graduate together holding 3 different ranks (as I described in my original post).


However--as I stated, he had not graduated and was therefore went from Cadet to Captain.  Pike, as CO of the vessel, was well within his authority to assign Kirk, on a provisional basis, to the POSITION of First Officer... but position does not confer rank.


Given how most real-world military works (and how we've seen Starfleet work up to this point in the franchise), when Spock relinquished command, the next highest ranking individual (excluding non-combatants like McCoy) should have assumed command--being Scotty as the only other Lt. Cmdr. identified on-screen--with Kirk retaining his provisional position of First Officer.


But again... chaos breeds unusual situations--and a leader is only as effective as the followers.


Regarding the Kobyashi Maru test--I was going to suggest that it was a component of Command Training in which a Command-track officer returned to the Academy to complete and not part of the actual Academy curriculum itself.  This idea is supported in that Saavik holds the comissioned rank of LtJG despite being referred to as cadet (likely due to her status as a student) as well in TNG in which Troi must undergo a no-win training scenario in order complete her Bridge Officer qualifications prior to being promoted to full Commander (TNG: "Thine Own Self").  This idea is mirrored in real-world militaries, but I haven't found anything at Memory Alpha to confirm/support the idea, so it is possible that I'm wrong in that the Kobyashi Maru is, indeed, part of the regular pre-commissioning curricula.


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Commanding Officer, Frontier Fleet
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stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this Mar. 01 2013, 1:31 pm

Quote: Gawain_VIII @ Mar. 01 2013, 1:02 pm

>Unfortunately, that suggestion is not supported by dialog heard in the film.


theres no need for suportive dialog.


Canon is as seen or hered on film


Uhura is also refered to as a cadet and ranked as LT.As was Savik back in TWOK.


And btw, Prime Kirk was said to hold the rank of lt when he and Garry Mittchel were both studants at the acadamy.


So I dont see how your real world military comparisons help your argumnernt here.


And based on how we've seen Starfleet in the past, what we saw in the film isint to far fetched


 


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fireproof78

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Report this Mar. 01 2013, 1:59 pm

^^


I understand where you are coming from and just posted in "Abrams on the Sequel" thread about the same issue. I don't feel the need to reprint it here but I would hope you will read it and respond

Gawain_VIII

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Report this Mar. 01 2013, 2:56 pm

theres no need for suportive dialog.


I, respectfully, disagree.


Canon is as seen or hered on film


A statement of fact, no argument here.


Uhura is also refered to as a cadet and ranked as LT.


Uhura was referred to as cadet UNTIL she reported for her assigned duty, which, coincidentally is when she stopped wearing the cadet uniform and began wearing the service uniform.


As was Savik back in TWOK.


Again, Saavik was referred to as Cadet while an actively participating student. Upon completion, when she reported for duty, she was referred to by her rank and no longer wore the red turtleneck.


And btw, Prime Kirk was said to hold the rank of lt when he and Garry Mittchel were both studants at the acadamy.


Incorrect. Cadet Mitchell was a student in Lt. Kirk's class. The line of dialog which validates this is from Where No Man Has Gone Before, when Mitchell remembers that, as a Freshman cadet at the academy, "The first thing I ever heard from upperclassmen was: Watch out for Lieutenant Kirk. In his class, you either think or sink."


So I dont see how your real world military comparisons help your argumnernt here.


Considering that former Air Force pilot, Major Gene Roddenberry drew extensively from his own real-world military experience in the devlopment of the franchise--a development which you can see develop and become more pronounced throughout TOS, TMP, and early TNG.


Although I will concede that the level of detail utilized had waned considerably as GR grew older, it waxed again after Rick Berman took over as lead on the franchise.


ROBERT CHARLES GRAHAM, Vice Admiral
U.S.S Gawain NCC-91980
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wissa

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Report this Mar. 01 2013, 3:23 pm

No one ever seems to take into consideration that much of the fleet was destroyed at Vulcan.  I'm sure everyone who survived got some huge promotions.  After all, you wouldn't expect Uhura to be on the bridge in her first assignment.  Or McCoy to be chief medical.   Sure to captain is a bit further, but then Kirk saved Earth and destroyed the Narada. 


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Vger23

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Report this Mar. 01 2013, 3:33 pm

For what it's worth, I agree with everything Stovokor has said.


Also, more importantly, it doesn't matter. Entertainment seldom equals realism. Who gives a rat's rear? Star Tre isn't real. Not even close, actually. All that matters is that the stories and characters are fun and entertaining. If you're looking for "realism," Star Trek should be the last place you're sniffing around.

fireproof78

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Report this Mar. 01 2013, 3:51 pm

Quote: Gawain_VIII @ Mar. 01 2013, 2:56 pm

>

>As was Savik back in TWOK.

>Again, Saavik was referred to as Cadet while an actively participating student. Upon completion, when she reported for duty, she was referred to by her rank and no longer wore the red turtleneck.

>


This is one where I actually will disagree. Saavik is shown having Lieutenant's ranking on her uniform, and is refered to as Lieutenant throughout Wrath of Khan, not as cadet.


Warning: Long, winding fan thesis following.


 


The arguments against Kirk's promotion have been made and made again with the tireless argument "The military doesn't work that way" vs "Kirk earned it because of his clear decision making in a crisis."


 


I get that no argument will ever satisfy everyone but I will make an attempt. I mean no offense to anyone but I will be picking apart some comments.


 


There are several claims about Kirk's promotion would not work in any real world military. However, Starfleet is not a real world military. Despite later incarnations of Starfleet, it is not a military organization.


 


This goes back to Roddenberry's original inspiration for Starfleet. He was inspired by Robert Heinlein's "Space Cadet" novel which describes an exploration and peace keeping organization from the viewpoint of a cadet from Iowa.


 


One of the best descriptions of the Space Patrol in Space Cadet is that it is not a military organization. Yes, it has a military structure, ranks and protocols, but it is not a military like the American Navy. It is certainly inspired by the American Navy but it is not one to one comparison. As stated, Roddenberry had his own military experience, but behind the scenes documents show that this was not his only inspiration.


 


In Starfleet, we have been shown that cadets can be moved in to the chain of command as matter of their schooling. Saavik being a great example as a senior, command school, cadet who is shown wearing lieutenant's rank in Wrath of Khan. Saavik easily steps in to the chain, being given the bridge towards the end of the movie.


 


So, we have precedent that cadets are not just cadets, but expected to be able to step in to the chain of command.


 


In addition to film examples, we also have real world military and fictional military examples. One aspect of military life is the chain of command. In Starship Troopers, it is discussed that the chain is there to ensure that people know their place, that it is real organization to maintain order. In that novel, officer candidates are made 3rd lieutenants to place them in the chain of command, to give orders and command troops in a legal manner.


 


In a similar manner, if cadets were to serve in an emergency situation, such as McCoy or Uhura, they would need to be placed in the chain of command. Once that is done, they are eligible to move up that chain if officers are killed or incapacitated. McCoy becomes chief medical officer after the Enterprise's CMO is killed in Nero's attack. Similarly, Scotty takes over as Chief Engineer once aboard the Enterprise.


 


Kirk may have only been a cadet-lieutenant but once Pike placed him as first officer, he was placed above in the chain of command. While no promotion may not have been apart of it, it clearly shows Pike's confidence in Kirk.


 


In addition, how many officers were lost in Nero's attacks? How many officers were available to fill in the lost positions. How will Starfleet will replace those experienced line officers from the destroyed ships? How many experienced officers are available?


 


Hope that all makes sense.


 

VORTEX8472

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Report this Mar. 01 2013, 4:08 pm

Quote: Vger23 @ Mar. 01 2013, 3:33 pm

>

>For what it's worth, I agree with everything Stovokor has said.

>Also, more importantly, it doesn't matter. Entertainment seldom equals realism. Who gives a rat's rear? Star Tre isn't real. Not even close, actually. All that matters is that the stories and characters are fun and entertaining. If you're looking for "realism," Star Trek should be the last place you're sniffing around.

>


I appreciate your pragmatic attitude, as much as I enjoy & love Star Trek, it is Entertainment.  Too much ado about nothing IMO.


wissa

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Report this Mar. 01 2013, 4:22 pm

In one of the other threads there is a screen cap of the display in the transporter room when Kirk, Sulu and the redshirt were on the probe.  Kirk is identified as Lt. on the screen.


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stovokor2000-A

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Report this Mar. 01 2013, 9:55 pm

Quote: Gawain_VIII @ Mar. 01 2013, 2:56 pm

>I, respectfully, disagree.


there are pleanty of examples of computer screen info taken as canon with no supportive dialog.


A statement of fact, no argument here.


You seem to be contradicting yourself.If you agree herfe, why disagree ablove.


Uhura was referred to as cadet UNTIL she reported for her assigned duty, which, coincidentally is when she stopped wearing the cadet uniform and began wearing the service uniform.


And was back in cadet dress uniform near the end of the film, so whats your point?


Again, Saavik was referred to as Cadet while an actively participating student. Upon completion, when she reported for duty, she was referred to by her rank and no longer wore the red turtleneck.


At what poiint are you refering?She wore the red turtelneck for the entire film "TWOK"


Incorrect. Cadet Mitchell was a student in Lt. Kirk's class.


I'm not incorrect, Garry Mikttchel was an underclassmen, Kirk was a strudent in structor.Both were still attending the acadmy.


Considering that former Air Force pilot, Major Gene Roddenberry drew extensively from his own real-world military experience in the devlopment of the franchise--a development which you can see develop and become more pronounced throughout TOS, TMP, and early TNG.


Sorry, still dont see how it helps you.As much as they try to stick to real world rules/science, there are times that they just deviate from the real world.


 


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stovokor2000-A

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Report this Mar. 01 2013, 10:13 pm

Quote: fireproof78 @ Mar. 01 2013, 3:51 pm

>This is one where I actually will disagree. Saavik is shown having Lieutenant's ranking on her uniform, and is refered to as Lieutenant throughout Wrath of Khan, not as cadet.


sorry, you are not 100% correct.Spock refered to the entire group, Savik included, as cadets.


Hope that all makes sense.


 it does bud


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stovokor2000-A

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Report this Mar. 01 2013, 10:15 pm

Quote: Vger23 @ Mar. 01 2013, 3:33 pm

>

>For what it's worth, I agree with everything Stovokor has said.

>
thank you very much


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fireproof78

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Report this Mar. 01 2013, 10:32 pm

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Mar. 01 2013, 10:13 pm

Quote: fireproof78 @ Mar. 01 2013, 3:51 pm

>

>This is one where I actually will disagree. Saavik is shown having Lieutenant's ranking on her uniform, and is refered to as Lieutenant throughout Wrath of Khan, not as cadet.

sorry, you are not 100% correct.Spock refered to the entire group, Savik included, as cadets.

Hope that all makes sense.

 it does bud


Fair point. and thanks for the correction. I meant to add in that she was also wearing her red cadet turtle neck throughout the film too, indicating both a rank of lieutenant and a cadet.


Thank you

stovokor2000-A

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Report this Mar. 01 2013, 10:36 pm

Quote: fireproof78 @ Mar. 01 2013, 10:32 pm

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Mar. 01 2013, 10:13 pm

Quote: fireproof78 @ Mar. 01 2013, 3:51 pm

>

>

>This is one where I actually will disagree. Saavik is shown having Lieutenant's ranking on her uniform, and is refered to as Lieutenant throughout Wrath of Khan, not as cadet.

sorry, you are not 100% correct.Spock refered to the entire group, Savik included, as cadets.

Hope that all makes sense.

 it does bud

Fair point. and thanks for the correction. I meant to add in that she was also wearing her red cadet turtle neck throughout the film too, indicating both a rank of lieutenant and a cadet.

Thank you

thank you


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