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Can't believe how bad DS9 was...

Kilrahi

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POSTS: 405

Report this May. 23 2013, 9:38 pm

Quote: Pooneil @ May. 23 2013, 10:11 am

>

>I guess I just think there's something slightly wrong with the world when a science fiction show about a frontier space station in the 24th century has to rely on the sort of standard-issue melodrama I'd expect from a sitcom.

>


If I had to guess that's because regardless of the medium, people are still people and bring with them their silly emotions.

fireproof78

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POSTS: 342

Report this May. 23 2013, 10:57 pm

Quote: Kilrahi @ May. 23 2013, 9:38 pm

Quote: Pooneil @ May. 23 2013, 10:11 am

>

>

>I guess I just think there's something slightly wrong with the world when a science fiction show about a frontier space station in the 24th century has to rely on the sort of standard-issue melodrama I'd expect from a sitcom.

>

If I had to guess that's because regardless of the medium, people are still people and bring with them their silly emotions.


The horror lol


OtakuJo

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POSTS: 16362

Report this May. 24 2013, 2:09 am

Yeah see i don't get that, because the only real commonality in a lot of these small details that people identify as "wrong" and "soap opera" about DS9 are that they are the kind of things that happen in stories that people write about people. As such they transcend genre -- and can't really be said not to "belong" in any specific type of story, setting or time period.


People were people 400 years ago, and they will still be people in another 400 years. Having relationships, making lives for themselves, and so on... There's nothing to suggest that this aspect of life will be so very out of place in the future, and even less to suggest that it doesn't fit in any setting.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

Pooneil

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POSTS: 1023

Report this May. 24 2013, 6:58 am

I'm not saying it doesn't fit, OtakuJo, or that that sort of stuff doesn't belong in science fiction at all. What's wrong to me is that the show is set in the future -- on a space station, next to a wormhole, frequented by exotic and often godlike aliens -- and yet none of the personal drama arises as a consequence of the setting. Sisko's burnt peppers and the O'briens' marital woes didn't happen because they were humans dealing with adverse conditions on a deep space outpost. Take away the space station and a lot of the show would remain the same. So what's the space station for?


I understand that people will still have these sorts of problems in the future. In fact, I think I can take for granted that they will. But I watch and read science fiction to find out about what other kinds of problems we'll have after we've traveled to other planets and met alien races.


There was a great article in The Onion that I'll try to find: It was about a young author who'd written a bestselling semi-autobiographical novel about the hardships she faced growing up in a depressed small town in Oklahoma. For her next novel, she's decided to write a science fiction story...about the hardships faced by a girl growing up on a depressed small colony in the Andromeda Galaxy.

Kilrahi

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POSTS: 405

Report this May. 24 2013, 5:23 pm

There are two types of literary approaches to science fiction.  One is the hard science approach that focuses primarily on the technology.  People and relationships tend to take a back seat.  Sometimes they really aren't even featured at all.


The second type, "space opera" (a name I accept for better or worse) focuses far more on the people and the relationships than the technology.  You are absolutely correct that DS9, and even Star Trek as a whole, is more of this type.


I for one can't stand the harder science approach, and I find it often becomes silly and dated as time passes and real life quickly makes that fiction implausible.  To each his own though.


I'd rather read about the burned peppers anyday.

LovesKirk

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POSTS: 11

Report this May. 25 2013, 3:24 pm

As with all the series, I watched a few here and there of each of them.  While I never really got in to DS9 fully and have yet to see the entire series, I must say it was far better the all the other series coming closest as being an original concept to TOS it's self.


Doesn't top TOS, but comes in a close second.


In order from best to worst:


TOS 


DS9


VOY


TNG


ENT


 

Kilrahi

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POSTS: 405

Report this May. 25 2013, 5:29 pm

I can understand and appreciate anyone who prefers TOS.  I have a pretty healthy respect for it (you have to, it started the whole dang thing) even though I rank it third.


I do have to say that I struggle with ranking Voyager as anything other than pure crud.  The show should have been called ST: VOY - TNG Retread with Cheese. 

Kilrahi

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POSTS: 405

Report this May. 25 2013, 5:32 pm

Pooneil said:


"I'm not saying it doesn't fit, OtakuJo, or that that sort of stuff doesn't belong in science fiction at all. What's wrong to me is that the show is set in the future -- on a space station, next to a wormhole, frequented by exotic and often godlike aliens -- and yet none of the personal drama arises as a consequence of the setting. Sisko's burnt peppers and the O'briens' marital woes didn't happen because they were humans dealing with adverse conditions on a deep space outpost. Take away the space station and a lot of the show would remain the same. So what's the space station for?"


 


 


There are two approaches to science fiction.


Hard science fiction focuses on the technology.  Characters and people are either minor or pretty much ignored.


The other type is space opera (I grudgingly accept the name).  The technology is only there as a tool, but people and their problems are still the focal point.  It is this type that DS9 is, and in fact, all of Star Trek.


I'll take the burned peppers stories over the hard science approach anyday.

pb03

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POSTS: 56

Report this May. 25 2013, 7:36 pm

Everyone has a right to their opinions, but doesn't mean I share the sentiments at times. I still love TNG series, in fact have all the original box sets for standard DVD and re-run them over and over  lol  But I also have collected most of the DS9 box sets and love that series just as much. I think the regligious aspect could have been toned down a bit, could have been entertained more for even more battle scenes than there were. But alot of the DS9 episodes actually were quite moving and entertaining than even TNG episodes. I agree with the above episode "The Visitor", sure was a tear jerker for me in that I lost my Dad to Cancer when I was younger, so I could feel the sadness Jake felt for his father being wooshed away to somewhere and probably never getting to see him again. For certain it takes time for a series to gather its followers or interest in the shows, but as its been said almost all of the Star Trek series just gets better and better with the passage of time. I think Avery Brooks was an amazing Captain and very bold & courageous, and the rest of the cast was terrific. Just as Sir Patrick Stewart and his entourage were terrific, it was and still is a wonderful gift to the fans to have them attend the Conventions and meet the legends. Each of the episodes have something I think each and every one of us can learn from, science, art, visual effects, teaching lessons from the dialogue, etc. 


I'm going to go on a limb and say all the movies up to the latest one: Into Darkness have been amazing! The Original Series is still a little cheesy, but I love it anyways because it's so Classic and once in awhile it's amazing to see how it all began. The Next Generation is by far a salute to the whole franchise, Deep Space Nine is quite brilliant and I salute the Men & Women who made that show such a success, Voyager was pretty neat but needed time to develop and hold interest (but I love the shows from that one). Enterprise I didnt get to see too often, some of the episodes I've seen were ok. I Think Scott Bakula did much better on Quantum Leap, but i'm sure the cast from that series were terrific to work with and I thank them for trying their best under some tough circumstances. I bow to the whole franchise and I'm very proud to be apart of the whole legion of dedicated, and loving Star Trek fans around the world!  

OtakuJo

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Report this May. 26 2013, 12:59 am

Thanks for your post pb03.


I think a lot of people believe that there could have been less religion in DS9. (I liked that aspect because it added to the cultural complexity of each race. If anything, I would have liked to have seen more religious diversity on Bajor -- although we did see a little of that with the Pah Wraith cult and the villagers in The Storyteller.) Other people say that there should have been less Dominion War and more Emissary stuff, since the Emissary stuff is how DS9 started and ended. (I like the Dominion War too, because it adds to the historical complexity of the station and its surroundings.) Still others say that they feel that the characters shouldn't have had any time away from the war. (Personally I feel that "non-war" episodes were a welcome break in the overall tone.)


Can't please everyone.


For my part, I like that it had a good balance of all of those things. And now that I think about it, there was very little that I didn't like, and most of that is either an episode or some niggly detail. Other series are good too of course. IDunno this isn't really any commentary on other people, but now that DS9 has seven complete seasons and was not cancelled before its time, it doesn't particularly matter to me what anyone else thinks. So if anyone were to ask me to "get real" about the subject of DS9, I just did.



Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

OtakuJo

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POSTS: 16362

Report this May. 26 2013, 1:02 am

Long thread considering that the OP has only 1 post.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

fireproof78

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Report this May. 27 2013, 11:31 pm

Quote: Pooneil @ May. 24 2013, 6:58 am

>

>I'm not saying it doesn't fit, OtakuJo, or that that sort of stuff doesn't belong in science fiction at all. What's wrong to me is that the show is set in the future -- on a space station, next to a wormhole, frequented by exotic and often godlike aliens -- and yet none of the personal drama arises as a consequence of the setting. Sisko's burnt peppers and the O'briens' marital woes didn't happen because they were humans dealing with adverse conditions on a deep space outpost. Take away the space station and a lot of the show would remain the same. So what's the space station for?

>I understand that people will still have these sorts of problems in the future. In fact, I think I can take for granted that they will. But I watch and read science fiction to find out about what other kinds of problems we'll have after we've traveled to other planets and met alien races.

>There was a great article in The Onion that I'll try to find: It was about a young author who'd written a bestselling semi-autobiographical novel about the hardships she faced growing up in a depressed small town in Oklahoma. For her next novel, she's decided to write a science fiction story...about the hardships faced by a girl growing up on a depressed small colony in the Andromeda Galaxy.

>


First of all, your last paragraph makes me laugh a lot because of the ideas of the author's stories


Its a fair point and one of my short stories have been criticized for being like that-take away the laser guns and space station and the story I wrote works in a warehouse too. So, you go back and deal with those elements.


Perhaps, and this is more speculation since I haven't watched DS9 in about 5 months or so, the more human moments, peppers and the like, are there because there is so much else going on "out there." We have episodes, especially later, that take place completely off of DS9 that don't involve the more human elements. You have complex problems, like the Cardassian resistance, the Pah-Wraith cult and things like that that can be a little too alien at times. Moments of humanity give the audience the next emotional rung of the handle in order to carry the story forward in the human drama.


I operate with an odd perspective to sci-fi, any sci-fi, hard, operatic, soft and Star Trek. No matter how things change, humans are still humans. Finding relatable, if little, moments that I can grasp on to with the characters make the stories worth while to me. If there is an alien problem, I think moments of a human problem help balance it out.


There are, of course, different attitudes, but I think DS9 was trying to reach for a balance.

dreem24

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POSTS: 70

Report this May. 28 2013, 10:52 am

deep space nine well it's not bad but not that good either it a tv drama shot in the 90s


 


The quality is not very good but it's ok(camera,sound,writing work etc)


 


There is the occasional slap fights(not fist fights they are poorly done to be fist fights)


 


there is occasional firefights(with the plastic guns)


 


but nothing major you know that the characters are gonna be okay and will come out on top of things 


 


It's like a series about a time of big war and you just have to mention it but it's not the main focus the focus are the character(witch are not so human and are mostly bland) and their little corner of the world ... But not like the normal military these don't get transferred in or out...


 


I never did see a character to shake hands with someone and say for example Hi or Hello my name is(name) nice to meet you or i'm here to/for...


 


 


Overall average tv drama about not so good military officers in time of some war...


 


Occasional two parts with average production quality...


 


They tried to do something but it dosen't work good


 


Example will be the Maquis two parter where you can't help it but notice that the new character the officer that comes to "help" will be involved somehow...


 


The really bad is the "twist" and the scene where he stuns the main characters and leaves before they wake up we might as well drawn a line here and call them dead if not for the stun effect of the weapon...(plot device) Not that they can't use handcuffs...


WHAT DO THE KLINGONS DREAM ABOUT? FOR WILD SEX WITH BEAR IN A DARK FOREST...

Kilrahi

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POSTS: 405

Report this May. 28 2013, 5:49 pm

You would be hard pressed to find anyone who agrees with you that the production quality was lacking.  In fact, I think it is this piece right there that shows your bias is borderline psychotic. 


The Star Trek teams had already had years of experience with TNG.  Their cameras were top notch, and there special effects teams were second to none on television at the time.  Their budgets were some of the highest for big TV, and countless critics of the time never failed to mention their quality. 


If you can say something so grossly wrong about that aspect of the show, why should anyone take you seriously for even one minute when you critique the dramatic element? 


You don't even capitalize all of your sentences and you want to critique a concept like quality?

VicTwenty

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POSTS: 1

Report this May. 29 2013, 6:33 am


What boggles my mind is how OP can criticize DS9 for lacking 'maturity' while being a TNG fan. TNG was obviously under a lot of limitations to be true to Roddenberry's 'vision', which tended to result in the characters being a lot less complex than they were allowed to become on DS9... how is Data, who is basically just a robot Pinocchio, somehow a 'complex' character that you need a certain level of maturity to understand?


How are counsellor Troi or Dr. Crusher fascinating multi-dimensional female characters compared to either Dax or Kira? Kira and Dax both have exciting backstories that colour their characters and make them richer and more interesting-- what exactly is interesting or complex about Troi or Crusher? Is Crusher interesting because her husband died? The most interesting thing about Troi is how she manages to convince the crew that looking at someone's angry face and saying 'I sense anger' makes her a valuable crewmember. 


Riker is basically Kirk redux whose character arc throughout the series mostly consists of growing a beard, always doing the right thing, and not accepting promotion. Geordi's only fault is that he's so perfect he can't get a date, oh and sometimes he picks on Barclay (until he learns his lesson and goes back to being perfect again). On TNG, Worf is the security chief who is constantly being overpowered by pretty much everyone... all of that bat'leth training didn't seem to pay off for him until he got on DS9. 


Patrick Stewart and Brent Spiner are the only reason TNG is worth watching-- and yes, I would say that Stewart makes a fantastic lead and is a brilliant choice for Captain... I would say that those two manage to make the rest of the cast look good by association. 


Unfortunately, I do agree about Sisko-- he is the weak link on DS9 and it's the supporting characters who do most of the heavy lifting-- it's really unfortunate that he's at the center of the show. Sometimes Avery Brooks doesn't seem to have practiced his lines, and his delivery is hammy and awkward to the point that I actually start wondering what the guest stars were thinking when they had to work with him. I can't help but wish that they had gotten another actor... the scripting was great, it was just that Avery Brooks managed to mess it up far too often, and I guess everyone else was too nice to suggest he dial it down a little. 


Maybe because OP is apparently a director he's more interested in composition and the more technical aspects of the show but to attack the 'maturity' level of DS9 while copping to being a TNG fan is perplexing. 


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