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Can't believe how bad DS9 was...

OtakuJo

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POSTS: 16362

Report this Feb. 01 2013, 3:34 am

Quote: murnogladst @ Jan. 27 2013, 8:40 am

>

>it seems like EVERY SINGLE episode I can remember liking is actually terrible, from the standpoint of intelligent TREK-world fiction. ... it's like watching a car crash that doesn't skid to a halt but rather goes on for seven years.

>


Well sure that's your opinion, and you are welcome to it. The world would be an incredibly boring place if we were all interested in the same things.


I feel that as a viewer you really have to take on two personae -- the first being a critic, and there are aspects of all (yes, ALL) Star Trek series that the critic would find vaguely silly, or would think "that could be better". One thing you have not done very successfully is to define exactly how you see "intelligent TREK-world fiction". You might want to give that a little more critical thought.


The second persona is that of a casual viewer -- one who really just goes along with whatever the story tells you, because if you wear the "Critic" hat all the time, then nothing you watch is any fun at all.


Each to their own, really. If DS9 is not your thing (as is the case with many people here), then it's not your thing. I'm not the one who's going to try and convince you that it's the best thing since sliced bread -- Just go with what you enjoy. It's never going to be the same as every other person's favourite fare.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

Trekker_Tokyo

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Report this Feb. 06 2013, 3:20 pm

Ds9 was the best! Ratings for it on air showed ppl like it, yea it was different but best drama out of all of them

Thot Pren

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Report this Feb. 06 2013, 10:17 pm

DS9 is, and always will be the best Star Trek series ever. Why you ask? Because it is the only series that is one huge epic story from beginning to end. Paramount never wanted a serialized show. Behr, Moore and the rest of the writing staff had to covertly create the conditions that required DS9 to become the epic it was. TNG, TOS and ENT all had great episodes, heck, even great two and three parters, but nothing will ever come close to what they accomplished on DS9.  Overly dramatic? Considering there was a full scale war for two entire years of the series, I wouldn't say that is the case. While every other series may have discussed the possibility of war, or wars in history, not one took place during an actual full scale war. So yeah, it was dramatic.


"Repent your disobedience, and prepare for insertion of the instrument of obedience" -For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky (TOS)

UninvitedGuest

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Report this Feb. 07 2013, 4:04 am

DS9 is my favorite trek show, but some of the early episodes with plots centered around the Bajorans are just mediocre in my opinion. Also, the show improved a lot after they got the Defiant.

Trekker_Tokyo

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Report this Feb. 07 2013, 6:29 am

Agreed, early episodes were rough at points but from 3 and 1/2 on the best series out of them all.

Broadstorm

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Report this Feb. 07 2013, 3:17 pm

DS9 did have some really bad episodes, but the same could be said for the other series.  It also had some really good episodes, which could also be said of the other series.  These discussions tend to go back and forth, and something that people love about a series is what others hate about it.  I do think it is a double standard though that people who praise DS9 for the story arc that spanned multiple seasons, bash Enterprise for its 1 season arc.  One big problem to me with DS9, and of course, there will be many who say it was not a problem, is that it compounded the problem from the other series in regard to command staff & away teams.  TOS routinely had the captain & first officer leaving the ship.  TNG partially fixed that by having the first officer lead most of the away missions while the captain remained on the ship.  Voyager also tended to follow that model.  There was also the issue of multiple department heads leaving the ship on away missions which caused them to sometimes be on the wrong side of the shields if the ship was attacked during an away mission.  DS9 often had the entire command staff going off on the Defiant on missions into the Gamma Quadrant which not only put them on the wrong side of the shields, but also the wrong side of the wormhole if the station was attacked while the Defiant was gone.

darth_timon

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Report this Feb. 08 2013, 5:34 am

Quote: murnogladst @ Jan. 27 2013, 8:40 am

>

>I was a huge TNG fan, and can still actually recite the script along with many of the later episodes. I remember not really liking the first episode of DS9 when I was in high school, but I also remember feeling that the show got better in time (some time around when they shaved Avery Brooks' head).
However, I've recently been trying to find a good episode for my wife and I to watch, and it seems like EVERY SINGLE episode I can remember liking is actually terrible, from the standpoint of intelligent TREK-world fiction.We've tried the first, fourth and fifth seasons, and it's like watching a car crash that doesn't skid to a halt but rather goes on for seven years.

>The characters seem designed for a seven-year old's level of maturity, and the acting is terrible! Being a director I can understand why, in part, when you look at the blocking - DS9 characters are often forced to stand in front of one another to try and emphasise the whole cardassian-triangle asthetic (and probably just to be different from TNG). However, doing this isolates your actors and destroys sight lines, leaving everyone guessing as to where the action is, and the actors looking uneasy about timing and reactions and emotional believability - this is perhaps more painful in DS9 than in ANY OTHER TV SHOW I HAVE SEEN IN MY LIFETIME! You can 'see the wheels turning' in every actor's face as they so obviously go about 'just doing their job'; the audience has a clearer understanding of what these actors want to be doing after the shoot than they do about their characters' intentions!

Avery Brooks should have gotten into the swimming pool installation business instead of acting. Holy $#!+, it's like watching a drop-out student in their first acting class. He's totally disconnected from the scene when he delivers the single-sentence lines he's entrusted with - and he can't even deliver these without moving his head around like a bobble-head puppet. His voice has only one note, and we can tell he's angry when he flashes his teeth... thank god, I wasn't sure if he was constipated or about to laugh or what... I think he thinks it's "acting" when you move around like a gummy-bear with a mild form of Parkinsons. I mean, they went from Patrick Stewart to THIS GUY?! They can't even trust him with monologues, which essentially trashes the entire TREK story-telling format. Instead they give him one-liners, the sure-fire sign that the production was regretting hiring him, and he can't even deliver these without his eyes saying "I'm mad" while his mouth says "I'm happy". I bet the cast and crew and even he knows it too... they'll take it to the grave that he was the weakest link, bringing the whole cast and production down to amateur level. Thanks Avery.

>However, no-one seems to talk about this and I can't understand why. Did every other TNG fan just give up when DS9 came out, and now every TREK fan is from a totally different breeding pool than I? If someone had told me that DS9 was good when I was 7, I might have had a very different life. Luckily I was reared on TNG and TOS, so by the age of 13 I could tell that DS9 was junk, and perhaps for this reason I have a grasp on what good dramatic television is. This DS9 junk should have had a math lesson at the end that kids could work out with their parents, like on sesame street.

Honestly I'm shocked so many people like this show. The only remaining episodes that I remember being any good which we still haven't tried watching are the first six episodes of season six. Gonna try these tonight and I'll re-post here if my feelings change any. Honestly I will, cause I would like to have this very anti-TREK view of mine deposed. However, between Avery Brooks, Nana Vistor and Ira Stephn Behr, I think I might have a rough ride ahead.

>I of course loathed Voyager as well, but most people feel the same way about that one, in my experience. The anomaly is DS9, and I feel like I'm out in the Gamma Quadrant, looking in.

>Mark DeSilva

>


You're entitled to your opinion but what you're trying to do here is pass your opinion off as fact. It's not.


I for one loved DS9. It offered greater continuity than TNG, more fleshed-out characters, and there were consequences to actions taken. It showed us Starfleet officers and the Federation having their ideals truly tested, rather than the rosy picture TNG painted.


I am here to shake things up

deerstop

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Report this Feb. 09 2013, 9:01 am

DS9 has the most boring "captain", I agree on that.

Utopia Planetia

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Report this Feb. 09 2013, 9:22 pm

This thread motivated me to register here.

I will say that of all the treks, next generation executed its concept the best. I watched an episode recently, and its demonstration of enlightened utopianism is clear in just about every element of the show and throughout the series, basically from beginning to end.

DS9, on the other hand, is fairly inconsistent in applying its (pretty complex) concept, and the production team seem scattered in terms of understanding their concept itself and how to represent it on screen.

So I think that problem is what nags many (most?) folks when comparing DS9 (and voyager and enterprise) to the better-realized next generation and original series.

That said, that important element actually makes next generation much simpler and certainly easier to process than DS9. So it's odd that you characterize DS9 as childish, especially vs. next generation. I've never had that feeling about the show, even when I disliked it.

Next generation and even the original series were great for me as a kid, and I basically tuned-out DS9 after the first episode. But, a few years ago, when looking for something to veg-out on, I pulled up a DS9 episode and realized how complex, high-quality, and beautiful a show it is, and how well it stands the test of time in ways next generation and the original series do not.

Also, I think Brooks is great in DS9. And one liners? Maybe you've seen too few episodes. Like all trek series, some episodes emphasize one or two characters over others, but the Sisko character is consistently a central figure with a whole lot to do. In fact, he is almost certainly the most important character because of his pivotal role in resolving the celestial battle between the prophets and their fallen cousins, the pah-wraiths. The show is basically all about Sisko. Only enterprise comes close in that respect.

Also, don't know how anyone can so harshly judge Brooks given hacks like Kate Mulgrew and Scott Bakula. He's certainly no worse than Shatner. And Stewart I can see people being swayed by, if only for his bearing. And he did do great work in that Cardassian torture scene.

So, to the OP, I wonder if you have some other motive here that you aren't considering and/or aren't revealing. Cause your argument seems a bit weak when put in context. Though your blocking point is very interesting, not knowing film myself.

UninvitedGuest

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Report this Feb. 10 2013, 12:12 am

DS9 is a trek show that you have to watch a good number of the episodes to know what's going on with the plot, and to understand about elements like the Dominion, Bajorans, Cardassians, Klingons, etc.


Shows like TOS and TNG are very good, but they're are also more "casual-viewer friendly" than DS9.


 


 


 


 

OtakuJo

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Report this Feb. 10 2013, 12:22 am

Quote: UninvitedGuest @ Feb. 10 2013, 12:12 am

>

>DS9 is a trek show that you have to watch a good number of the episodes to know what's going on with the plot, and to understand about elements like the Dominion, Bajorans, Cardassians, Klingons, etc.

>Shows like TOS and TNG are very good, but they're are also more "casual-viewer friendly" than DS9.

>


Well put. This doesn't hold true for every episode, but there are so many cases where an episode of DS9 is like a chapter of a novel -- as opposed to an anthology of short stories, as original series and TNG tend to be.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

jeanluckirk737

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Report this Feb. 10 2013, 3:57 am

You shouldn't necessarily comapare DS9 to TNG or TOS- they're are different shows, they just are set in the same universe. DS9 will have a diiferent structure to TOS or TNG- it's set on a space station not a starship.


TOS and TNG are also very episodic, unlike DS9 which is heavily serialised. This is due to it's stationary setting- Deep Space Nine can't travel to planets all the time like the Enterprise ('s) can.


I'm sorry, but, the acting in DS9 is much better than the acting in TOS(with the exception of DeForest Kelley). So you can't exactly complain when you are a fan of TOS. I'm not saying DS9 is a better show, I'm just saying that the acting is better, much better.


 


"Who am I to argue with the captain of the Enterprise?"- Kirk to Picard. 2371.

leroybrock

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Report this Feb. 10 2013, 3:05 pm

DS9 wasn't terrible. There are aspects of the show that I despise such as the the Bajorans, the Prophets, and Sisko's acting but the rest was pretty good.

I Am Ultra Narcissus.

HaventGotALife

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Report this Feb. 10 2013, 8:46 pm

EDITED FOR GRAMMATICAL AND CONTENT ERRORS:


 


I still like Deep Space Nine and here are the reasons. The show is about Opression from beginning to end. Deep Space Nine is essentially a collection of cast-offs and mis-fits that live there because they have no other place to go. Garak and Ziyal, Quark, Worf, Odo, etc. It starts with the Bajorans dealing with 50 years of Oppression coming to an end. It deals with the Federation facing a similar situation as the Cardassians did with the Bajoran resistance after a treaty is signed--the Maquis. Next, the Federation faces oppression. Actually, the entire Alpha Quadrant with regards to the Dominion. It brought home what the audience rejected, seeing the Bajorans as the protagonists of the show. 


The show is geared towards a different day. Next Generation was ahead of its time. Deep Space Nine is subjected to the same acting and staging as other adventure shows of the 1990s. Our audiences simply didn't expect to see reality on the screen, especially when it comes to science fiction. Buffy the Vampire Slayer was really the first show (and the early episodes are unwatchable now) of trying to get legitimate acting out of supernatural characters. 


Still, Next Generation is not perfect. I still can't pick a season one episode I like. The crew has no reason to be so happy and to have bonded together as quickly as they did. The acting is over-the-top and I can't imagine why it stayed on the air. The worst part is that speculation is dead-on. In later episodes, hypothesis were exactly that. They tested them and got back to you. They used deduction in TNG and it was some of the most satisfying moments of the series because the audience is right along with them. 


And the same can be said of Deep Space Nine once they really get into the meat of the Dominion War. Take "Statistical Probabilities" and "What You Leave Behind." The Federation wouldn't be able to fight as terrorists. Plain and simply put, the totalitiarian Dominion, for all its pleasantness and hospitality, would exterminate an entire planet. What helped keep the Bajorans alive was that the Cardassians wanted the resources of the world without having to do any of the hard work. So it's win the war, or face oppression, death. We fight the good fight because we are not going to end this experiment that is called the human race. The Sixth Season is well-planned and there's a lot of talk about what makes the universe we knew in Next Generation the universe we see in Deep Space Nine. Soldiers. Post-traumatic stress. Losing people that you care about to this war. Not having any choice but going to war. All of this is covered in the scripts of DS9. Whether it was expressed by the actors is another story entirely.   


 


I suggest "The Search," Parts I and II. I just watched it and outside of Odo's unexplained draw to the nebula, there's a lot to like here. For instance, there's the laying out of what Deep Space Nine is trying to do--we have had an era of peace. The Borg changed that. Everything from damaging Picard and Sisko on a human level, to our response if they ever come back. Hence, the Defiant. And remember, this warship, a single warship that has "teeth," is defeated by the Jem'Hadar. Sisko's acting is explained by Dax. This is Sisko with purpose. Mr. Director, take a look at the fight scenes. They are unlike anything seen in Star Trek up to that point, and they are grittier than they were in even the war. You're heart will rise and fall for Odo, while in the back of your mind, you will be wondering where the rest of the crew is, if they are alive. Odo's exploration of the garden is Trek. He doesn't know an object, even though he has experienced life as its form. True understanding comes from the Great Link. And it plays out an scenario if Sisko was successful, what it would mean for the Federation. They have to stay enemies. 



It is accepted that the show took off in the 3rd or 4th season. I believe there's episodes before that. Look at "Emissary," "In the Hands of the Prophets," "Progress," "The Homecoming," "The Circle," "The Siege," "Amageddon Game," just to name a few. The fourth season is full of gems. It's about the rising tension of the Dominion threat. It's about how the Alpha Quadrant is tearing itself apart because of this threat. The Klingons invade everyone. Starfleet siezes control of earth. It's, by far, my favorite season. But, to each his own. I hope I gave you something to chew on for awhile.


Its stories are about the depth and complexity of human interaction and relationships. It studies us and asks us to look within ourselves, to relate, to ask how would we respond to all that is in their world?

leroybrock

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Report this Feb. 11 2013, 5:20 pm

I hate everything about the Bajorans and their alleged oppression. After watching the show I couldn't say that I really approve of the Cardassian aggression against them, but I understand.

The Bajorans claimed the age of their civilization to be 10,000 years and sneered at humans saying that Bajorans were exploring the stars while they were living in mud huts. Despite this characteristic arrogance and self obsession the bastards amount to less than nothing.

Accomplishments of 10,000 years:
-Established an oppressive and nonsensical caste system upon themselves that they didn't abandon until the Cardassians made them.

-Did not manage to have even one major colonized world besides the one they're stagnating on.

-Look down upon other species more advanced and accomplished then they are.

-Continue a crazy ancient religion centered around the worship of wormhole aliens that appear to not have done much for them until DS9. Continued that religion even after the Chroniton particle magic bullet for killing all of them if we felt like it was discovered.

-Blatant stagnation.

-Didnt miss any chances to show everyone how inclined they were to backstabbery, terrorism, arrogance, and hypocrisy.

And for 7 seasons I watched the Federation and even the Klingons kiss these bastards asses for no good reason. At least the Cardassians *try* to make something of themselves.

I Am Ultra Narcissus.

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