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Socialism

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Created by: DUKAT!!!!

darmokattanagra

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POSTS: 386

Report this Feb. 01 2013, 7:05 pm

The employee agreed to that rate.

Yes, in the same way they "agree" to pay for food, clothing, housing, etc. They would not agree to pay for those things or work for, as one person put it, "less than a literal walk in the park" if they weren't FORCED to.

What right does an individual or group (including the government) have to tell another individual what they can and can't do with their own property? What right do I have to tell you who may or may not enter into your home?

What right does anyone have to claim something as their property? You can say that the Constitution grants us the right to own property but then who gave the Founders the right to draft the Constitution? Who gave the people who voted to ratify it the right to do so? Etc.

darmokattanagra

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 386

Report this Feb. 01 2013, 7:24 pm

Slavery is never humane.  When I am forced to provide my time/effort/money to support someone else, I am turned into their slave.

Just so everyone's clear:


Rich people paying taxes for things like food stamps because they choose not to pay their employees a livable wage = slavery.

Poor people working for 285-10,000 times less than their employers because they have no capital to start their own business = freedom.


 


Now let's all laugh at the irony of conservatives spending an entire work day on an internet message board ranting about "freeloaders."

wissa

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POSTS: 4022

Report this Feb. 01 2013, 8:36 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 01 2013, 4:50 pm

Quote: wissa @ Feb. 01 2013, 4:15 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 01 2013, 4:03 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ Feb. 01 2013, 3:54 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 01 2013, 3:27 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ Feb. 01 2013, 2:56 pm

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>Just a general note, consider this. Contribution to a welfare system is primarily just the humane thing to do. But also, it is a smart insurance policy: Luck is fickle. Your turn to need the welfare system could come in a matter of days. Don't think of it as "socialism", if that helps -- the old labels aren't helpful any more, and the old paranoias are outdated.

>
Slavery is never humane.  When I am forced to provide my time/effort/money to support someone else, I am turned into their slave.

If people want to CHOOSE to buy this type of insurance policy, let them do it privately, but never should force be used.

This does not even come close to slavery & force.

Really?  Why does someone else have the right to my time, effort and money?  The way they're getting it is via the force of government.  This is the same thing that happens with slaves - they're forced to work for someone else and are not compensated for their labors.

you are compensated.  You have paved roads, and water coming out of your taps at a greatly subsidized cost, you have cheap power, you can call the police or fire department should you have a need to, you rarely if ever get invaded... the list goes on and on

Nope - those are other things paid for in addition to the redistribution of wealth.  Roads are paid for by gas and local taxes.  I pay for police/fire via local taxes.  I pay a private company for power.  In fact, most things are better and cheaper if they were privatized.

When I pay for someone else to get medical care or eat or have a home, etc., I am NOT compensated.  I am paying for someone else's "insurance" program.  They, using goverment, are enslaving me for their use.  (Remember, redistribution of wealth is over half of the Federal goverment's spending.)


yes you make payments on these things, but what you pay and the cost of actually providing the goods do not balance out.  What you are paying is heavily subsidized


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FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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POSTS: 46297

Report this Feb. 01 2013, 9:03 pm

Quote: wissa @ Feb. 01 2013, 8:36 pm

>yes you make payments on these things, but what you pay and the cost of actually providing the goods do not balance out.  What you are paying is heavily subsidized
Well... it depends on the tax bracket.... Some pay a lot more for the services and some pay almost nothing.  Those things are "subsidized" by taxes....


But the discussion was about redistribution of wealth under the guise of "insurance."  People are forcing others to work for them.

wissa

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POSTS: 4022

Report this Feb. 02 2013, 7:15 am

well, I think the conversation is about socialism but...


that is what any form of insurance is.  Your house insurance, your car insurance, health insurance. 


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FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Feb. 02 2013, 9:15 am

Quote: wissa @ Feb. 02 2013, 7:15 am

>

>well, I think the conversation is about socialism but...

>that is what any form of insurance is.  Your house insurance, your car insurance, health insurance. 

>
Private contracts that people are not forced to purchase.  If I choose not to purchase them, I don't have to.

God in an Alcove

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POSTS: 43

Report this Feb. 04 2013, 4:15 pm

What happens if we don't help to support universal healthcare? For one, a lot more sick people. Some of those people would be looking for employment, but they can't any more if they fall ill. More sick people also increases everyone else's risk of falling ill, despite what type of health insurance they may have. Which could result in the loss of work shifts, or even employment. So, instead of losing a few dollars to healthcare taxes, those people are suddenly losing all potential dollars.


What happens if we don't help to support housing? Most of the people that rely on the help will find themselves living on the street. And since most cities have crimilized homelessness, many of those people will end up in jail. And jails are supported by our tax dollars. So either way, we'll still be footing the bill.


 


 

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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POSTS: 46297

Report this Feb. 04 2013, 5:17 pm

Quote: God in an Alcove @ Feb. 04 2013, 4:15 pm

>

>What happens if we don't help to support universal healthcare? For one, a lot more sick people. Some of those people would be looking for employment, but they can't any more if they fall ill. More sick people also increases everyone else's risk of falling ill, despite what type of health insurance they may have. Which could result in the loss of work shifts, or even employment. So, instead of losing a few dollars to healthcare taxes, those people are suddenly losing all potential dollars.

>What happens if we don't help to support housing? Most of the people that rely on the help will find themselves living on the street. And since most cities have crimilized homelessness, many of those people will end up in jail. And jails are supported by our tax dollars. So either way, we'll still be footing the bill.

>
There's nothing wrong with someone choosing to help another privately or through charitable organization, but socialized programs use force to steal from someone and redistribute it to another.  That's THEFT.


And now... so many people think it's their right to take from someone else via the government.  They think it's the government who should be taking care of them instead of them taking care of themselves.  This is why the number of people getting handouts from the government continues to grow.  They've become irresponsible.


It has been proven over and over again that the more the government does for people, the more people depend on the government, willingly giving up their liberties.

darmokattanagra

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POSTS: 386

Report this Feb. 04 2013, 6:24 pm

It has been proven over and over again that the more the government does for people, the more people depend on the government, willingly giving up their liberties.


Maybe employers should do more for their employees if they want people to be dependent on them instead of the government.

OtakuJo

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Report this Feb. 05 2013, 4:09 am

Quote: God in an Alcove @ Feb. 04 2013, 4:15 pm

>

>What happens if we don't help to support universal healthcare? For one, a lot more sick people. Some of those people would be looking for employment, but they can't any more if they fall ill.

>


Which is exactly why I have no problem with paying health subsidies even though I am healthy (for the moment). Because I know that although (for the moment) I cannot afford private health insurance, the day still may come when I need the healthcare system, and on that day I will at least not be turned away in an emergency, or incur some irredeemable debt as a result. I also know that the public system has a greater interest in health than in making money for itself, so they will not be looking for reasons not to help me.


The option to take out private health insurance is still there, and New Zealand is not a socialist country, (and incidentally, I hate our current Prime Minister!) but this is not undue reliance on the government; it is the government doing its job and spending our taxes where the money can be of most benefit.


Additionally, I am a student at the moment. I went back to university to study further because there weren't enough jobs to go around, and I did not want to go back onto Unemployment. I have a student loan which I must repay as soon as I start earning over a certain threshold, but do not have to repay it until the day when I have the money to do so. I did also get student allowance for some time. Without government assistance, it is doubtful that many people could afford tertiary education in a world where a degree is becoming more and more important -- the jobs which make enough money for student fees are increasingly out of reach to those who do not already have a university degree.


If my taxes do not go towards social security, public infrastructure, and all those things that our country and the people in it need to survive, then as far as I am concerned, that is a waste of my taxes. Never mind redistribution of wealth -- the gap between rich and poor is as large as ever, and it's like people say: If hard work were truly the only means of accumulating wealth, then the poorest African countries would be chock full of millionaires.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

OtakuJo

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Report this Feb. 05 2013, 6:10 pm

haha well I haven't stolen anyone's money for using the health system recently because I haven't been to the doctor since almost two years ago. But I'm no fool. I don't mind paying my taxes to the public health system because I know that my turn may come. And as for education, as a wise man said, without subsidised education we would all be surrounded by stupid people.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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POSTS: 46297

Report this Feb. 05 2013, 6:43 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ Feb. 05 2013, 6:10 pm

>

>haha well I haven't stolen anyone's money for using the health system recently because I haven't been to the doctor since almost two years ago. But I'm no fool. I don't mind paying my taxes to the public health system because I know that my turn may come. And as for education, as a wise man said, without subsidised education we would all be surrounded by stupid people.

>
You're more than welcome to choose to redistribute your money anyway you choose, but why support theft of others to support your views?  Should I have the right to take your money to support my projects?  Of course not!


Oh... and there's a big difference between stupid and ignorant.... it's just the gubmunt edewkayshun & indocktrunayshun cystduuhhmm are making stupid people.

God in an Alcove

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POSTS: 43

Report this Feb. 08 2013, 3:50 am

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 04 2013, 5:17 pm

Quote: God in an Alcove @ Feb. 04 2013, 4:15 pm

>

>

>What happens if we don't help to support universal healthcare? For one, a lot more sick people. Some of those people would be looking for employment, but they can't any more if they fall ill. More sick people also increases everyone else's risk of falling ill, despite what type of health insurance they may have. Which could result in the loss of work shifts, or even employment. So, instead of losing a few dollars to healthcare taxes, those people are suddenly losing all potential dollars.

>What happens if we don't help to support housing? Most of the people that rely on the help will find themselves living on the street. And since most cities have crimilized homelessness, many of those people will end up in jail. And jails are supported by our tax dollars. So either way, we'll still be footing the bill.

>
There's nothing wrong with someone choosing to help another privately or through charitable organization, but socialized programs use force to steal from someone and redistribute it to another.  That's THEFT.

And now... so many people think it's their right to take from someone else via the government.  They think it's the government who should be taking care of them instead of them taking care of themselves.  This is why the number of people getting handouts from the government continues to grow.  They've become irresponsible.

It has been proven over and over again that the more the government does for people, the more people depend on the government, willingly giving up their liberties.


What force?


So maybe we should reform the system? Giving help to those who need it, as opposed to those who simply want it?


Proven by whom? I've seen evidence for both methods, from countries invlolving people who both do and do not want to support themselves. And, often, both and in the same systems.


NOTE: I responded to you in order; I'm not sure how to split quotes.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46297

Report this Feb. 08 2013, 9:38 am

Quote: God in an Alcove @ Feb. 08 2013, 3:50 am

>What force?
government is force.  Taxation is done by the government, and if you don't pay...

Lone Palm

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POSTS: 207

Report this Feb. 08 2013, 9:38 am

What force?


The government can (illegally) seize (by military force if necessary) a company's or an individual's assests or arrest individuals. For example, as part of Roosevelt's embargo against Japan prior to Peal Harbor, the government seized Japanese holdings in the U.S... bank accounts were frozen, oil stopped being shipped to Japan, etc...  Japan responded to these sanctions by attacking Pearl Harbor. And of course the U.S. government  imprisoned American citizens, who were of Japanese decent.


Individuals pay taxes, not because they want to, but because they don't want to be imprisoned or have their assets seized. Thus, individual behavior is a result of coercion, rather than volunteerism.  

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