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Socialism

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Created by: DUKAT!!!!

Lone Palm

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POSTS: 207

Report this Feb. 01 2013, 1:30 pm

Don't get me wrong - I hate the USA's gestapo (IRS) as much as you do, but taxation was still done by force before the 16th Amendment.  Whiskey Rebellion anyone?


The 16th Amendment opened the floodgates though. Taxation, as indicated, was the cause of the Whiskey Rebellion, but the legislation that brought about the taxation of whiskey and carriages was retarded. It simply didn't account for economic relativity. For example, grains would spoil by the time they were moved across the Appalachian Mountains to the East Coast. The grains wouldn't spoil if converted into Whiskey. What do people want: spoiled grains or good whiskey? Whiskey was the producers' economic specialty at the time and taxation penalized their productivity. But like any "good" politician, they go for taxing sin. 


I certainly acknowledge Constitutional taxation, and it is really the only enumerated power I would want to amend and do away with. I believe the founding fathers took a mistep on this point as far as advacning liberty goes, but I also acknowledge their hard fought battles against the nationalists. Everything wrong today is more due to human behavior failing and usurping the Constitution, rather than the Constitution failing us. 

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46309

Report this Feb. 01 2013, 1:44 pm

Quote: Lone Palm @ Feb. 01 2013, 1:30 pm

>The 16th Amendment opened the floodgates though.
Absolutely!  If you read the texts of the discussion regarding the 16th amendment, they were talking about limiting the amount (to 1.5% I think,) but it was rejected because they didn't want some future politian to demand that much.  (And then look what happened a few short years later.)

Lone Palm

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 207

Report this Feb. 01 2013, 1:50 pm

Actually, I've got no problem with a small number of secrets within the goverment if it really has to do with national security and keeping our enemies at bay.  But the government shouldn't hide the majority of stuff or put a lot of stuff that they don't want exposed into a classified project.


The problem I have with the government maintaining secrets, aside from the fact that it can be used as an excuse to grow unconstitutional government, is how to reconcile the expenses of maintaining public agencies with secrets while demanding to see the costs of government? 

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46309

Report this Feb. 01 2013, 2:02 pm

Quote: Lone Palm @ Feb. 01 2013, 1:30 pm

>But like any "good" politician, they go for taxing sin.
Yep - they either want to change behavior by using taxes... or taxing the most popular items so they have more of our money to spend.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46309

Report this Feb. 01 2013, 2:07 pm

Quote: Lone Palm @ Feb. 01 2013, 1:50 pm

>

>Actually, I've got no problem with a small number of secrets within the goverment if it really has to do with national security and keeping our enemies at bay.  But the government shouldn't hide the majority of stuff or put a lot of stuff that they don't want exposed into a classified project.

>The problem I have with the government maintaining secrets, aside from the fact that it can be used as an excuse to grow unconstitutional government, is how to reconcile the expenses of maintaining public agencies with secrets while demanding to see the costs of government? 

>
Sometimes's that's difficult, but we have enemies that want us destroyed and they would love for us to expose our defense capabilities so they can come up with ways to beat them.

OtakuJo

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 16362

Report this Feb. 01 2013, 2:41 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 01 2013, 8:00 am

Quote: OtakuJo @ Jan. 31 2013, 11:07 pm

>

>Capitalism offers individual opportunity, but in its extremest form it encourages selfishness and emphasises short term profitability over long term consequences.
If I could go all Ayn Randian on you... if someone goes after short term at the expense of long term, they aren't being selfish at all - they're being stupid.


Well, yes. On this I agree with you. They are being stupid, and very often they are being selfish. I see it all the time -- the pursuit of short-term profits at the expense of limited resources on our planet. In ten, twenty, even thirty years a business mogul might make more money, but the inevitable consequence of the decisions they make to prioritise profit over sustainability is that in two or three generations (and sometimes even within those twenty years), they damage the world in ways that can never be reversed. Even deny scientific evidence of the damage that people are causing! And yes, that is stupid. Even more stupid that "the system" views their attitude as admirable.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

OtakuJo

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 16362

Report this Feb. 01 2013, 2:56 pm

Just a general note, consider this. Contribution to a welfare system is primarily just the humane thing to do. But also, it is a smart insurance policy: Luck is fickle. Your turn to need the welfare system could come in a matter of days. Don't think of it as "socialism", if that helps -- the old labels aren't helpful any more, and the old paranoias are outdated.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46309

Report this Feb. 01 2013, 3:23 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ Feb. 01 2013, 2:41 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 01 2013, 8:00 am

Quote: OtakuJo @ Jan. 31 2013, 11:07 pm

>

>

>Capitalism offers individual opportunity, but in its extremest form it encourages selfishness and emphasises short term profitability over long term consequences.
If I could go all Ayn Randian on you... if someone goes after short term at the expense of long term, they aren't being selfish at all - they're being stupid.

Well, yes. On this I agree with you. They are being stupid, and very often they are being selfish. I see it all the time -- the pursuit of short-term profits at the expense of limited resources on our planet. In ten, twenty, even thirty years a business mogul might make more money, but the inevitable consequence of the decisions they make to prioritise profit over sustainability is that in two or three generations (and sometimes even within those twenty years), they damage the world in ways that can never be reversed. Even deny scientific evidence of the damage that people are causing! And yes, that is stupid. Even more stupid that "the system" views their attitude as admirable.

Nope - if they were truly "selfish", they'd want the most money they could get.  This means providing the best product they can to get the most profit.  This also takes a long-term viewpoint because if they sacrifice the long-term for the quick profit, then they've lost out and weren't selfish at all.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46309

Report this Feb. 01 2013, 3:27 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ Feb. 01 2013, 2:56 pm

>

>Just a general note, consider this. Contribution to a welfare system is primarily just the humane thing to do. But also, it is a smart insurance policy: Luck is fickle. Your turn to need the welfare system could come in a matter of days. Don't think of it as "socialism", if that helps -- the old labels aren't helpful any more, and the old paranoias are outdated.

>
Slavery is never humane.  When I am forced to provide my time/effort/money to support someone else, I am turned into their slave.


If people want to CHOOSE to buy this type of insurance policy, let them do it privately, but never should force be used.

OtakuJo

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 16362

Report this Feb. 01 2013, 3:52 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 01 2013, 3:23 pm

>

>Nope - if they were truly "selfish", they'd want the most money they could get.  This means providing the best product they can to get the most profit.  This also takes a long-term viewpoint because if they sacrifice the long-term for the quick profit, then they've lost out and weren't selfish at all.

>


Bam_Bam, being selfish does not necessarily mean being smart. As often as not, it's self-interest that makes people stupid. Humans are hard-wired to take whatever resources they can, and move on. Many powerful people do prioritise the short term -- which is precisely why they ignore or deny clear evidence of environmental damage. Global warming, ocean & soil acidification, destruction of habitats, depletion of fishing reserves. Not to mention the social and economic consequences that we are experiencing even today. People are getting better at recognising the need for sustainability than they have been, but you still can see them pushing a short-term agenda. And note, a single lifetime is not "long term" in this case.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

OtakuJo

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 16362

Report this Feb. 01 2013, 3:54 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 01 2013, 3:27 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ Feb. 01 2013, 2:56 pm

>

>

>Just a general note, consider this. Contribution to a welfare system is primarily just the humane thing to do. But also, it is a smart insurance policy: Luck is fickle. Your turn to need the welfare system could come in a matter of days. Don't think of it as "socialism", if that helps -- the old labels aren't helpful any more, and the old paranoias are outdated.

>
Slavery is never humane.  When I am forced to provide my time/effort/money to support someone else, I am turned into their slave.

If people want to CHOOSE to buy this type of insurance policy, let them do it privately, but never should force be used.


This does not even come close to slavery & force.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46309

Report this Feb. 01 2013, 4:03 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ Feb. 01 2013, 3:54 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 01 2013, 3:27 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ Feb. 01 2013, 2:56 pm

>

>

>

>Just a general note, consider this. Contribution to a welfare system is primarily just the humane thing to do. But also, it is a smart insurance policy: Luck is fickle. Your turn to need the welfare system could come in a matter of days. Don't think of it as "socialism", if that helps -- the old labels aren't helpful any more, and the old paranoias are outdated.

>
Slavery is never humane.  When I am forced to provide my time/effort/money to support someone else, I am turned into their slave.

If people want to CHOOSE to buy this type of insurance policy, let them do it privately, but never should force be used.

This does not even come close to slavery & force.

Really?  Why does someone else have the right to my time, effort and money?  The way they're getting it is via the force of government.  This is the same thing that happens with slaves - they're forced to work for someone else and are not compensated for their labors.

wissa

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 4026

Report this Feb. 01 2013, 4:15 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 01 2013, 4:03 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ Feb. 01 2013, 3:54 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 01 2013, 3:27 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ Feb. 01 2013, 2:56 pm

>

>

>

>

>Just a general note, consider this. Contribution to a welfare system is primarily just the humane thing to do. But also, it is a smart insurance policy: Luck is fickle. Your turn to need the welfare system could come in a matter of days. Don't think of it as "socialism", if that helps -- the old labels aren't helpful any more, and the old paranoias are outdated.

>
Slavery is never humane.  When I am forced to provide my time/effort/money to support someone else, I am turned into their slave.

If people want to CHOOSE to buy this type of insurance policy, let them do it privately, but never should force be used.

This does not even come close to slavery & force.

Really?  Why does someone else have the right to my time, effort and money?  The way they're getting it is via the force of government.  This is the same thing that happens with slaves - they're forced to work for someone else and are not compensated for their labors.


you are compensated.  You have paved roads, and water coming out of your taps at a greatly subsidized cost, you have cheap power, you can call the police or fire department should you have a need to, you rarely if ever get invaded... the list goes on and on


We welcome st.com refugees! click on the image

wissa

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 4026

Report this Feb. 01 2013, 4:34 pm

Quote: Lone Palm @ Feb. 01 2013, 11:37 am

>

>I wish that were true.... but you and I both know that politicians pander to the freeloaders telling them that if the freeloaders would vote in the politician, they'd get "free" stuff at the expense of another (responsible) person.

>But if the politician's paycheck is dependent on the voluntary donations of producers, as opposed to the government's ability to tax, the politician might not pander to the freeloaders so easily. 

>


fun theory.  Has there ever been a modern government that ran on donations before? or any government/


We welcome st.com refugees! click on the image

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46309

Report this Feb. 01 2013, 4:50 pm

Quote: wissa @ Feb. 01 2013, 4:15 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 01 2013, 4:03 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ Feb. 01 2013, 3:54 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 01 2013, 3:27 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ Feb. 01 2013, 2:56 pm

>

>

>

>

>

>Just a general note, consider this. Contribution to a welfare system is primarily just the humane thing to do. But also, it is a smart insurance policy: Luck is fickle. Your turn to need the welfare system could come in a matter of days. Don't think of it as "socialism", if that helps -- the old labels aren't helpful any more, and the old paranoias are outdated.

>
Slavery is never humane.  When I am forced to provide my time/effort/money to support someone else, I am turned into their slave.

If people want to CHOOSE to buy this type of insurance policy, let them do it privately, but never should force be used.

This does not even come close to slavery & force.

Really?  Why does someone else have the right to my time, effort and money?  The way they're getting it is via the force of government.  This is the same thing that happens with slaves - they're forced to work for someone else and are not compensated for their labors.

you are compensated.  You have paved roads, and water coming out of your taps at a greatly subsidized cost, you have cheap power, you can call the police or fire department should you have a need to, you rarely if ever get invaded... the list goes on and on

Nope - those are other things paid for in addition to the redistribution of wealth.  Roads are paid for by gas and local taxes.  I pay for police/fire via local taxes.  I pay a private company for power.  In fact, most things are better and cheaper if they were privatized.


When I pay for someone else to get medical care or eat or have a home, etc., I am NOT compensated.  I am paying for someone else's "insurance" program.  They, using goverment, are enslaving me for their use.  (Remember, redistribution of wealth is over half of the Federal goverment's spending.)

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