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Socialism

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Created by: DUKAT!!!!

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Feb. 28 2013, 3:43 pm

Quote: wissa @ Feb. 28 2013, 3:12 pm

>and really, supporting child labour now?  And you know I'm not talking about paper routes or shoveling snow.  In a society with masses of people relying on low wages children will be forced to work in order for the family survive.
Take a look at history - children have been working to help their families out for thousands of years.  So, yes, I support labor, regardless of age.  If a person is qualified to do the job and chooses to do it, why not?  They provide a service and learn a skill (and hopefully a work ethic) and are compensated.


 


Hmmmm... since we were on the topic of the German Socialists... was reviewing their adopted program.... #21 prohibited child labor.  I don't think that's a coincidence.

Lone Palm

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Report this Feb. 28 2013, 9:33 pm

I was just thinking about Marx and remembered his goals:  "My object in life is to dethrone God and destroy capitalism."


 


Now... he saw two ways to destroy capitalism (which he called "bourgeoisie"):


 


1) Violent revolution


 


2) Slow increase of state power through growing social services, taxation and regulation to a point where a transition would happen between an individualist to a collectivist society.


"There are two ways to conquer and enslave a nation. One is by the sword. The other is by debt." - John Adams


 


The goal of capitalism is to create wealth. Undercomsumption leads to savings, which are ultimately converted into new goods and services (wealth). Profits are a byproduct from which more savings can be gained for the cycle to repeat and expand wealth. Thus, capitalism discourages debt. An indebted government is not following the capitalist principle of underconsumption for the purpose of saving. Such a government would likely be socialistic and not capitalistic.

fireproof78

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Report this Feb. 28 2013, 10:34 pm

[quote]


[quote]


[quote]well, if Hitler was a socialist that might be valid. 


 


and way to not address my previous post 


[/quote]Hitler was a socialist - please do a few seconds of research.  Remember, Nazi = The National Socialist German Workers' Party.  Then if you look at its 25 point program, you can see their values.  Now, Hitler didn't always agree with all of the points of the program, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a Nazi.


I did address your previous posts - you just don't like the answers.  (And you won't answer my questions I've posted.... but I've come to expect that because there is no logical answer to support tyranny.)


Look, if you want to be a socialist, be one.... but don't demand that someone else must fund you.  Don't tell me I must pay for someone else's food or housing or car or mobile phone or internet or medical care or whatever... You don't have the right to enslave anyone else.  Socialism can only survive by leeching off the productive -  it's parasitical.


[/quote]


please show me where you have addressed the fact that many western countries combine socialism and capitalism or that unchecked capitalism has lead to horrible working conditions and abuse of children.  At to hitler, my fellow posters have already answered that better than I.  But I will point out I find it humorous that someone claiming to be as well read as you could be fooled by the name of a political party.  Because obviously the names of parties always clearly state the intentions of the party.     Hitler didn't create and name the party btw.  And he hated communism. 


[/quote]


Hitler hated a lot of things, let us be fair. But the point is, that he wanted to nationalize every industry and every aspect of life be regulated by the government.


A friend of mine once listed out the goals of the Soviet Communist Party and then discussed the American Government. The crazy part is, the socialization of American society has been so successful that both Adams and Marx are correct. The government power has slowly increased and now, American society cannot be imagined without it.


 


Also, no one has answered the question as to what right the government has to take from my hard work and labor and give it to someone else? I have no right to someone else's property and would be accused of stealing if I felt I had a right to it. What is good for government should be good for individuals.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Mar. 01 2013, 10:02 am

Quote: fireproof78 @ Feb. 28 2013, 10:34 pm

>

>Also, no one has answered the question as to what right the government has to take from my hard work and labor and give it to someone else? I have no right to someone else's property and would be accused of stealing if I felt I had a right to it. What is good for government should be good for individuals.

>
They can't / won't answer that question.  I've asked that many times over the years here, but nobody can logically support slavery.


See.. they know that if they declare a moral "right" to taking someone else's money because that person has more, then what happens when someone else has less?  What's to stop someone else from taking what they have using their philosphy?


 


Reminds me of what Abe Lincoln once wrote (just apply it to money):


You say A. is white, and B. is black. It is color, then; the lighter, having the right to enslave the darker? Take care. By this rule, you are to be slave to the first man you meet, with a fairer skin than your own.


You do not mean color exactly?--You mean the whites are intellectually the superiors of the blacks, and, therefore have the right to enslave them? Take care again. By this rule, you are to be slave to the first man you meet, with an intellect superior to your own.


But, say you, it is a question of interest; and, if you can make it your interest, you have the right to enslave another. Very well. And if he can make it his interest, he has the right to enslave you.

darmokattanagra

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Report this Mar. 01 2013, 12:04 pm

Also, no one has answered the question as to what right the government has to take from my hard work and labor and give it to someone else?

Article I, Section 8, Clause 1 of the Constitution:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Lone Palm

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Report this Mar. 01 2013, 1:52 pm

The narrow section quoated of Article I, Section 8 does not grant the government the power of blanket redistribution. Article I, Section 8 goes onto list what taxes may be applied to specifically.

fireproof78

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Report this Mar. 01 2013, 2:02 pm

Quote: darmokattanagra @ Mar. 01 2013, 12:04 pm

>

>Also, no one has answered the question as to what right the government has to take from my hard work and labor and give it to someone else?

Article I, Section 8, Clause 1 of the Constitution:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

>


Taxes is different than redistribution. If you wish to discuss this further, then we should make sure we understand what the Founding Fathers mean by Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises and General Welfare (I think Defense is well established).


And seeing as how this country survived without the numerous social programs unil only 100 years ago, I would say the framers did not intend redistribution.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Mar. 01 2013, 2:28 pm

Quote: Lone Palm @ Mar. 01 2013, 1:52 pm

>

>The narrow section quoated of Article I, Section 8 does not grant the government the power of blanket redistribution. Article I, Section 8 goes onto list what taxes may be applied to specifically.

>
They don't agree with the limitations in the Constitution, so they don't follow it.  (Although many will redefine the Constitution if it supports their goals.)

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Mar. 01 2013, 2:34 pm

Quote: fireproof78 @ Mar. 01 2013, 2:02 pm

>

>And seeing as how this country survived without the numerous social programs unil only 100 years ago, I would say the framers did not intend redistribution.

>
Really!?!!?!?  You mean that Social Security, unemployment, universal medical care, nationalized education, etc. didn't exist when Washington was President?!?!?!? 


 


 


fireproof78

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Report this Mar. 01 2013, 2:42 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Mar. 01 2013, 2:34 pm

Quote: fireproof78 @ Mar. 01 2013, 2:02 pm

>

>

>And seeing as how this country survived without the numerous social programs unil only 100 years ago, I would say the framers did not intend redistribution.

>
Really!?!!?!?  You mean that Social Security, unemployment, universal medical care, nationalized education, etc. didn't exist when Washington was President?!?!?!? 

 

 


Its a crazy thought...

humanityresurrected

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Report this Mar. 02 2013, 5:40 am

Gawain_VIII typed:


 


SOCIALISM: an ECONOMIC system by which SOCIETY at-large share equal ownership and COOPERATIVE management of all property and means of production.


 


CAPITALISM: an ECONOMIC system in which PRIVATE ownership of CAPITAL goods determine the management and means of production for PROFIT.


 


FREE-MARKET: an economic system from which the consumption of goods by the consumer determine the means and method of production. May be socialist, capitalist, or any variation between the two extremes.


 


COMMUNISM: a POLITICAL system which attempts to bring about a SOCIALIST society through PUBLIC (i.e. government, not society or community) ownership of the means of production.




 






 

Definition of 'Subsidy'
A benefit given by the government to groups or individuals usually in the form of a cash payment or tax reduction. The subsidy is usually given to remove some type of burden and is often considered to be in the interest of the public. 

Politics play an important part in subsidization. In general, the left is more in favor of having subsidized industries, while the right feels that industry should stand on its own without public funds.


Investopedia Says

Investopedia explains 'Subsidy'
There are many forms of subsidies given out by the government, including welfare payments, housing loans, student loans and farm subsidies. For example, if a domestic industry, like farming, is struggling to survive in a highly competitive international industry with low prices, a government may give cash subsidies to farms so that they can sell at the low market price but still achieve financial gain.

If a subsidy is given out, the government is said to subsidize that group/industry.




 




 




 




Read more: http://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/subsidy.asp#ixzz2MOBKyCSi




So how much would electricity be if we did not ave subsidy? Would we have any money to spend in te free market? wat would our wages look like? How can we get a real understanding of what  the world offers, unless we work together? 




Gawain_VIII  typed:


Communism is not the same as socialism.  Communism is evil.  Communism used force and coercion to make people do something they don't want to do. They lie and say they're bringing about Socialism, but it's really not because it's government-controled and not society-controlled.


 


So we live in the information age, should there be a change in th way we do things? 


 


 



Realizing the declaration of the world's resources as being the common heritage of all people.
Transcending the artificial boundaries that currently and arbitrarily separate people.
Replacing money-based nationalistic economies with a resource-based world economy.
Assisting in stabilizing the world’s population through education and voluntary birth control.
Reclaiming and restoring the natural environment to the best of our ability.
Redesigning cities, transportation systems, agricultural industries, and industrial plants so that they are energy efficient, clean, and able to conveniently serve the needs of all people.
Gradually outgrowing corporate entities and governments, (local, national, or supra-national) as means of social management.
Sharing and applying new technologies for the benefit of all nations.
Developing and using clean renewable energy sources.
Manufacturing the highest quality products for the benefit of the world’s people.
Requiring environmental impact studies prior to construction of any mega projects.
Encouraging the widest range of creativity and incentive toward constructive endeavour.
Outgrowing nationalism, bigotry, and prejudice through education.
Eliminating elitism, technical or otherwise.
Arriving at methodologies by careful research rather than random opinions.
Enhancing communication in schools so that our language is relevant to the physical conditions of the world.
Providing not only the necessities of life, but also offering challenges that stimulate the mind while emphasizing individuality rather than uniformity.
Finally, preparing people intellectually and emotionally for the changes and challenges that lie ahead.

darmokattanagra

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Report this Mar. 02 2013, 7:40 am

Really!?!!?!?  You mean that Social Security, unemployment, universal medical care, nationalized education, etc. didn't exist when Washington was President?!?!?!?


No, but slavery did.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Mar. 02 2013, 9:06 am

Quote: humanityresurrected @ Mar. 02 2013, 5:40 am

>So how much would electricity be if we did not ave subsidy? Would we have any money to spend in te free market? wat would our wages look like? How can we get a real understanding of what  the world offers, unless we work together?
Why should the taxpayer pay for another person's electricity?  Why should farmers be subsidized?  Or Oil?  Or anything else?


Remember that because of those subsidies, those companies have no reason to innovate as the taxpayers are artificially lowering the price so that there are more customers that will purchase the product.  It's just that people don't realize that many of us are actually paying more for it via the subsidy via the cost of government.

fireproof78

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Report this Mar. 02 2013, 7:47 pm

Quote: darmokattanagra @ Mar. 02 2013, 7:40 am

Quote: /view_profile/ @

Quote: /view_profile/ @

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>Really!?!!?!?  You mean that Social Security, unemployment, universal medical care, nationalized education, etc. didn't exist when Washington was President?!?!?!?

>No, but slavery did.

>

Which will not be eliminated by socialism. Just because capitalism has its ills does not mean to run in the opposite direction. That's throwing baby out with the bath water.

 

So how much would electricity be if we did not ave subsidy? Would we have any money to spend in te free market? wat would our wages look like? How can we get a real understanding of what  the world offers, unless we work together?

Why should the taxpayer pay for another person's electricity?  Why should farmers be subsidized?  Or Oil?  Or anything else?

Remember that because of those subsidies, those companies have no reason to innovate as the taxpayers are artificially lowering the price so that there are more customers that will purchase the product.  It's just that people don't realize that many of us are actually paying more for it via the subsidy via the cost of government.

This is the heart of the problem of socialism-it works contrary to human nature and removes any incentive to do better. You make more money? Well, that's not yours to keep because this person needs it even though they didn't work as hard as you did.

This is best illustrated in a lesson from an English colony. When the English first set up a colony in the Americas, they had an open barn system, in which people could freely put in and take as necessary. What happened? People stopped working, as they realized that their need would be met without work. Eventually, people stopped working period and the colony almost starved.

If you punish people for their success, they will not want to be successful to avoid the punishment. They will become resentful, sullen and apathetic. If you tell a person that despite their hard work they will only be paid the same amount, they have no reason to work harder.

Capitalism offers the freedom for people to choose, to take risks and to change the system.

“There are no doubt some things available to the modern workman that Louis XIV himself would have been delighted to have—modern dentistry for instance. On the whole, however, a budget on that level had little that really mattered to gain from capitalist achievement. Even speed of traveling may be assumed to have been a minor consideration for so very dignified a gentleman. Electric lighting is no great boon to anyone who has enough money to buy a sufficient number of candles and to pay servants to attend them. It is the cheap cloth, the cheap cotton and rayon fabric, boots, motorcars and so on that are the typical achievements of capitalist production, and not as rule improvements that would mean much to the rich man. Queen Elizabeth owned silk stockings. The capitalist achievement does not typically consist in providing more silk stockings for queens but in bringing them within reach of factory girls in return for steadily decreasing amounts of effort.”

— Joseph Schumpeter, >Capitalism, Socialism, and Democracy

dryson

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Report this Mar. 06 2013, 7:30 am

'Raping' Paul Ryan puts his foot in his mouth once more and proves that he is the Anti-Christ


Last night on MSNBC there was a video spot of Ryan making one of his famous quotes.


"Teach a Man to Fish and he will feed himself, Don't feed fish."


Not only was the quote completely degenerated it goes show that such people are the Anti-Christ.


Basically Ryan will teach you how to fish and if you fail then that is your own fault even though he was the one who taught you HOW to fish.


Jesus didn't believe this way. Jesus took from what he had and made certain that everyone had regardless of who they were.....in essence redistributing the 'wealth' or food to everyone. Not a single person went hungry that day....based upon the GOP's determination this is Socialism and Communism or making certain that everyone has a fair share of what was taken in from the days catch without anyone else receiving favor.


Those in the GOP that continue to blast Obama as being a Socialist are in fact Socialists theirselves as they spin the mighty net around using everyone around them to cast the net thus catching alot of wealth where the wealth is distributed to Ryan fist equally and then everyone around him based upon who cuddles up to him the most.


Ryan is the Anti-Christ because his politics are the blasphemous opposite of Jesus message.


"If you have then feed equally and without regard. Treat all those around you the same with equality. For those who judge based even on food wealth are judging those around her or him as if they were God....and such a person is not a God or Goddess because they judge to make theirself seem as powerfull as the Creator....which is a jealously that stems from the blood of Satan. To be as powerful as the Creator and to worshipped in the same manner."


Paul Ryan is the Anti-Christ who has come up through the political ranks just like in Omen.


Paul Ryan's benefit is Paul Ryan and no one else.


Those around him should tell him go fish for yourself Ryan and catch your own fish instead of stealing the best fish from the net.


A bullfrog with a light in its belly is nothing more than a glutton looking to shine otherwise.

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