ATTENTION: The Boards will be closed permanently on May 28th, 2014. Posting will be disabled on April 28th, 2014. More Info

Socialism

Report this
Created by: DUKAT!!!!

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46360

Report this Feb. 28 2013, 12:51 pm

Quote: wissa @ Feb. 28 2013, 12:47 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 28 2013, 12:16 pm

Quote: wissa @ Feb. 28 2013, 10:07 am

>

>

>I havn't made your point at all.    I'm starting to think you are incabable of having a real discussion about anything.  Anything anyone else said is just a starting point for you to spout the same rhetoric.

>
incapable?  Really, Wissa?  You know better than that.  You know I study the enemies of liberty more than most anyone else.  I've read the works of Hitler, Marx and Obama (among many others) and understand how it works.  Socialism is all about the government taking from one group of people and giving it to another in order to to have power over and enslave everyone.  How many millions of people have been murdered for the socialist cause (for the "good of society", of course?)  How many trillions of dollars has been destroyed by socialism?  How many more destruction do socialists want?

What gives someone else the right to my life?  If Group A can take from Group B the fruits of their labors, why should Group B work at all if it's easier to just join Group A?  Why scrimp and save and invest and work hard if the rewards of your toils are just going to go to someone else?  Don't you understand that the more government takes, the more it wants later?  And the more it wants, the more it takes.  It's unending.  And now we're losing over 50% of our income and can no longer grow business or invest.  Why do you think that the engine of the world is grinding to a halt?

and seriously, how dare you trivialize the acts of Hitler by putting him in the same sentence as Obama and Marx.

Now that's funny.... I'm showing how serious and dangerous socialism is and you call it trivializing?!?!

wissa

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 4031

Report this Feb. 28 2013, 1:37 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 28 2013, 12:51 pm

Quote: wissa @ Feb. 28 2013, 12:47 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 28 2013, 12:16 pm

Quote: wissa @ Feb. 28 2013, 10:07 am

>

>

>

>I havn't made your point at all.    I'm starting to think you are incabable of having a real discussion about anything.  Anything anyone else said is just a starting point for you to spout the same rhetoric.

>
incapable?  Really, Wissa?  You know better than that.  You know I study the enemies of liberty more than most anyone else.  I've read the works of Hitler, Marx and Obama (among many others) and understand how it works.  Socialism is all about the government taking from one group of people and giving it to another in order to to have power over and enslave everyone.  How many millions of people have been murdered for the socialist cause (for the "good of society", of course?)  How many trillions of dollars has been destroyed by socialism?  How many more destruction do socialists want?

What gives someone else the right to my life?  If Group A can take from Group B the fruits of their labors, why should Group B work at all if it's easier to just join Group A?  Why scrimp and save and invest and work hard if the rewards of your toils are just going to go to someone else?  Don't you understand that the more government takes, the more it wants later?  And the more it wants, the more it takes.  It's unending.  And now we're losing over 50% of our income and can no longer grow business or invest.  Why do you think that the engine of the world is grinding to a halt?

and seriously, how dare you trivialize the acts of Hitler by putting him in the same sentence as Obama and Marx.

Now that's funny.... I'm showing how serious and dangerous socialism is and you call it trivializing?!?!


 


well, if Hitler was a socialist that might be valid. 


 


and way to not address my previous post 


We welcome st.com refugees! click on the image

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46360

Report this Feb. 28 2013, 1:58 pm

Quote: wissa @ Feb. 28 2013, 1:37 pm

>well, if Hitler was a socialist that might be valid. 

>and way to not address my previous post 

>
Hitler was a socialist - please do a few seconds of research.  Remember, Nazi = The National Socialist German Workers' Party.  Then if you look at its 25 point program, you can see their values.  Now, Hitler didn't always agree with all of the points of the program, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a Nazi.


I did address your previous posts - you just don't like the answers.  (And you won't answer my questions I've posted.... but I've come to expect that because there is no logical answer to support tyranny.)


Look, if you want to be a socialist, be one.... but don't demand that someone else must fund you.  Don't tell me I must pay for someone else's food or housing or car or mobile phone or internet or medical care or whatever... You don't have the right to enslave anyone else.  Socialism can only survive by leeching off the productive -  it's parasitical.

darmokattanagra

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 397

Report this Feb. 28 2013, 2:34 pm

How did Hitler feel about Capitalism?


Adolf Hitler was an advocate of capitalism. On his route to power, he courted rich industrialists, who saw the theat of a militant communist movement in post 1st world war Germany as a threat to their position, and so backed the fascist and and anti trade union movement created by Hitler.

Hitler openly admitted his use of the word 'socialist' (in the name of his national socialist movement) and the use of red in propaganda, was an attempt to tap into the support that left wing ideas had gained since the economic downfall prior to the Treaty of Versailles. Although an advocate of state intervention in the economy, Hitler was a friend of big business, and his suppression of communists, socialists and trade unionists in seeking to break the organised labour movement, was proof of this.

In conclusion, fascism was merely an extension of the capitalist system. Rather than see Germany move towards socialism, big business supported Hitler as the lesser of two evils. Under fascism, they could maintain their position. Communists were the first to suffer from this opportunism, and many were killed in the concentration camps, alongside the Jews, gypsies and other minorities.


http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_did_Hitler_feel_about_Capitalism


 


It takes two seconds for us to fact check your bullsh!t, SpamSpam. Why do you even bother?

Gawain_VIII

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 191

Report this Feb. 28 2013, 2:37 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 28 2013, 1:58 pm

>Hitler was a socialist - please do a few seconds of research.  Remember, Nazi = The National Socialist German Workers' Party.  Then if you look at its 25 point program, you can see their values.  Now, Hitler didn't always agree with all of the points of the program, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a Nazi.


I've got to strongly disagree with you on this point, BamBam.  Hitler's National Socialist German Worker's Party is very much a far-right-wing populist/nationalist form of fascism.


Originally stemming from the German Volkisch movement and the anti-communist Freikorps organization, the National Socialists developed the Nazi idealology in which the betterment of the national society is paramount over all other considerations.


Because I'm about to leave work, for the purpose of time, I'd like to illustrate the concept with an analogy: If National Socialist idealogogy were adopted during the American Revolution, the presiding concept would have been "You will be a rich, white, land-owning, slave-owning male of non-Irish European descent in order to participate in, and be a productive member of, American Society--if you are unwilling, or unable, to become one of those idealized people then you are an undesirable with nothing to contribute to the greater good of the nation and do not belong as part of our society."


ROBERT CHARLES GRAHAM, Vice Admiral
U.S.S Gawain NCC-91980
Commanding Officer, Frontier Fleet
sto-frontier-fleet.proboards.com

darmokattanagra

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 397

Report this Feb. 28 2013, 2:47 pm

If National Socialist idealogogy were adopted during the American Revolution, the presiding concept would have been "You will be a rich, white, land-owning, slave-owning male of non-Irish European descent in order to participate in, and be a productive member of, American Society--if you are unwilling, or unable, to become one of those idealized people then you are an undesirable with nothing to contribute to the greater good of the nation and do not belong as part of our society."


That's not far from the truth.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46360

Report this Feb. 28 2013, 2:56 pm

Quote: Gawain_VIII @ Feb. 28 2013, 2:37 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 28 2013, 1:58 pm

>

>Hitler was a socialist - please do a few seconds of research.  Remember, Nazi = The National Socialist German Workers' Party.  Then if you look at its 25 point program, you can see their values.  Now, Hitler didn't always agree with all of the points of the program, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a Nazi.

I've got to strongly disagree with you on this point, BamBam.  Hitler's National Socialist German Worker's Party is very much a far-right-wing populist/nationalist form of fascism.

Originally stemming from the German Volkisch movement and the anti-communist Freikorps organization, the National Socialists developed the Nazi idealology in which the betterment of the national society is paramount over all other considerations.

Because I'm about to leave work, for the purpose of time, I'd like to illustrate the concept with an analogy: If National Socialist idealogogy were adopted during the American Revolution, the presiding concept would have been "You will be a rich, white, land-owning, slave-owning male of non-Irish European descent in order to participate in, and be a productive member of, American Society--if you are unwilling, or unable, to become one of those idealized people then you are an undesirable with nothing to contribute to the greater good of the nation and do not belong as part of our society."

Right wing... European, not American.  Remember where left and right wing in Europe came from... where they sat in Parliment.  On the left were communists and the right were nationalists - both vying for tyrannical control over others.  Both used socialist economics as a tool for their goals.  And for those people that Hitler didn't see as equal, he still wanted them to serve (be enslaved to) him and his "master race."

wissa

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 4031

Report this Feb. 28 2013, 2:59 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 28 2013, 1:58 pm

Quote: wissa @ Feb. 28 2013, 1:37 pm

>

>well, if Hitler was a socialist that might be valid. 

>and way to not address my previous post 

>
Hitler was a socialist - please do a few seconds of research.  Remember, Nazi = The National Socialist German Workers' Party.  Then if you look at its 25 point program, you can see their values.  Now, Hitler didn't always agree with all of the points of the program, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a Nazi.

I did address your previous posts - you just don't like the answers.  (And you won't answer my questions I've posted.... but I've come to expect that because there is no logical answer to support tyranny.)

Look, if you want to be a socialist, be one.... but don't demand that someone else must fund you.  Don't tell me I must pay for someone else's food or housing or car or mobile phone or internet or medical care or whatever... You don't have the right to enslave anyone else.  Socialism can only survive by leeching off the productive -  it's parasitical.


please show me where you have addressed the fact that many western countries combine socialism and capitalism or that unchecked capitalism has lead to horrible working conditions and abuse of children.  At to hitler, my fellow posters have already answered that better than I.  But I will point out I find it humorous that someone claiming to be as well read as you could be fooled by the name of a political party.  Because obviously the names of parties always clearly state the intentions of the party.     Hitler didn't create and name the party btw.  And he hated communism. 


We welcome st.com refugees! click on the image

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46360

Report this Feb. 28 2013, 3:02 pm

I was just thinking about Marx and remembered his goals:  "My object in life is to dethrone God and destroy capitalism."


 


Now... he saw two ways to destroy capitalism (which he called "bourgeoisie"):


1) Violent revolution


2) Slow increase of state power through growing social services, taxation and regulation to a point where a transition would happen between an individualist to a collectivist society.

wissa

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 4031

Report this Feb. 28 2013, 3:06 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 28 2013, 2:56 pm

Quote: Gawain_VIII @ Feb. 28 2013, 2:37 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 28 2013, 1:58 pm

>

>

>Hitler was a socialist - please do a few seconds of research.  Remember, Nazi = The National Socialist German Workers' Party.  Then if you look at its 25 point program, you can see their values.  Now, Hitler didn't always agree with all of the points of the program, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a Nazi.

I've got to strongly disagree with you on this point, BamBam.  Hitler's National Socialist German Worker's Party is very much a far-right-wing populist/nationalist form of fascism.

Originally stemming from the German Volkisch movement and the anti-communist Freikorps organization, the National Socialists developed the Nazi idealology in which the betterment of the national society is paramount over all other considerations.

Because I'm about to leave work, for the purpose of time, I'd like to illustrate the concept with an analogy: If National Socialist idealogogy were adopted during the American Revolution, the presiding concept would have been "You will be a rich, white, land-owning, slave-owning male of non-Irish European descent in order to participate in, and be a productive member of, American Society--if you are unwilling, or unable, to become one of those idealized people then you are an undesirable with nothing to contribute to the greater good of the nation and do not belong as part of our society."

Right wing... European, not American.  Remember where left and right wing in Europe came from... Parliment.  The left wing were communists and the right wing was nationalists - both vying for tyrannical control over others.  Both used socialist economics as a tool for their goals.  And for those people that Hitler didn't see as equal, he still wanted them to serve (be enslaved to) him and his "master race."


actually it came from the french revolution and the happenstance of which side of the king different groups sat


and fascism is universally defined as right wing.  You know, like conservatives.


We welcome st.com refugees! click on the image

wissa

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 4031

Report this Feb. 28 2013, 3:12 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 28 2013, 12:47 pm

Quote: wissa @ Feb. 28 2013, 12:21 pm

>

>and there you go.  No attempt at all to address my points that many western nations are able to combine socialism and capitalism very successfully.  Or that unbridled capitalism leads to 9 year olds sewing our clothes and working in coal mines.  You just go off on your own rhetoric yet again.
But you just say it's successful, but only if the goal is to kill capitalism.  When the government takes a majority of someone's income, how can they successfully build a business?  They can't!  But socialists already know this.

Think of a runner - which time would be faster: the one without a backpack increasing their weight by 100% or without?  Socialism is that weight.

What's wrong with a child working?  It's only been the recent history that some people consider it bad that a child has a job.  I'm not talking about enslaving someone to do labor, I'm talking about a child choosing to work somewhere and earning money for their labor and gaining skills.  Remember, capitalism can't force children (or anyone else) to work.  I worked as a child - there's nothing wrong with it.

 

Now you can try answering my questions.


 


hmmm I work for not one but two small businesses.   And I have socialized medicine and all sorts of other government safety nets somehow my bosses still make money. 


and really, supporting child labour now?  And you know I'm not talking about paper routes or shoveling snow.  In a society with masses of people relying on low wages children will be forced to work in order for the family survive. 


We welcome st.com refugees! click on the image

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46360

Report this Feb. 28 2013, 3:22 pm

Quote: wissa @ Feb. 28 2013, 2:59 pm

>please show me where you have addressed the fact that many western countries combine socialism and capitalism or that unchecked capitalism has lead to horrible working conditions and abuse of children.  At to hitler, my fellow posters have already answered that better than I.  But I will point out I find it humorous that someone claiming to be as well read as you could be fooled by the name of a political party.  Because obviously the names of parties always clearly state the intentions of the party.     Hitler didn't create and name the party btw.  And he hated communism. 

>
You stated that they've "successfully" combined opposite systems.  I challenged that by stating that since socialism is destroying capitalism, it's not "successful" unless that's the goal.  You may call it a "fact," but I don't.


As for children working, I addressed that multiple times.  You just don't like the idea that children work and have worked throughout history.  If someone, regardless of age, is being abused, that's not capitalism.  (Note:  It's interesting that socialism has murdered/abused hundreds of millions, but that's never an issue with socialists - they just ignore it and blame someone else.... but say that someone working is "abuse.")


I'm well aware that Hitler didn't create the NSDAP - it existed well before he took control, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a member.  And even if you ignored their name (like any political party - remember that don't care if someone is a Democrat or Republican in the USA,) take a look at their goals (which Hitler propsed) ... nationalization of industries, welfare, division of profits, etc.  It's about controlling others and destroying liberty.


As I've explained several times, historically, Communists and Nationalists hate each other - but if you look at it, they're have the same basic goals - complete control over the populace (although their reasons my be different.)  The only real argument is who's in charge - both are vying for power.  And remember... Hitler signed a non-aggression treaty with Russia (but then ignored it and invaded.)


 


 


And I'm still waiting for you to answer my questions.....

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46360

Report this Feb. 28 2013, 3:27 pm

Quote: wissa @ Feb. 28 2013, 3:06 pm

>

>actually it came from the french revolution and the happenstance of which side of the king different groups sat

>and fascism is universally defined as right wing.  You know, like conservatives.

>
I should have made it a little clearer (people forget that I've explained this many times.)  Yes, it came from the French Revolution - the supporters of the king were the nationalists and sat on the right side while the communists (revolutionaires) sat on the left.


equating fascism with conservatives doesn't make any sense.  Fascists don't fight for liberty - they enslave people.


 


But I look at things with a scale of most government control (left) to least government control (right):


 


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46360

Report this Feb. 28 2013, 3:38 pm

Quote: wissa @ Feb. 28 2013, 3:12 pm

>hmmm I work for not one but two small businesses.   And I have socialized medicine and all sorts of other government safety nets somehow my bosses still make money. 
They may be making money, but not nearly as much as they could without having a lot of it taken away.  How much more money could they invest in new ideas or services?  How many more people could they hire?


As I asked before, which you didn't answer, what right allows one group to demand another take care of them?  Why should your bosses be enslaved to someone else?

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46360

Report this Feb. 28 2013, 3:43 pm

Quote: wissa @ Feb. 28 2013, 3:12 pm

>and really, supporting child labour now?  And you know I'm not talking about paper routes or shoveling snow.  In a society with masses of people relying on low wages children will be forced to work in order for the family survive.
Take a look at history - children have been working to help their families out for thousands of years.  So, yes, I support labor, regardless of age.  If a person is qualified to do the job and chooses to do it, why not?  They provide a service and learn a skill (and hopefully a work ethic) and are compensated.


 


Hmmmm... since we were on the topic of the German Socialists... was reviewing their adopted program.... #21 prohibited child labor.  I don't think that's a coincidence.

Forum Permissions

You cannot post new topics in this forum

You cannot reply to topics in this forum

You cannot delete posts in this forum