ATTENTION: The Boards will be closed permanently on May 28th, 2014. Posting will be disabled on April 28th, 2014. More Info

Socialism

Report this
Created by: DUKAT!!!!

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46342

Report this Feb. 27 2013, 12:42 pm

Quote: Lone Palm @ Feb. 27 2013, 12:38 pm

>

>I'm a socialist. What about my liberty? Why should I be forced to participate in the capitalist system?

>I find your statement ironic given that it advocates the principle of secession, pulling away from an undesirable assocation, a position that collectivists (liberals, socialists, nationalists, neoconservatives, etc.) reject. In a capitalist system, you shouldn't and wouldn't be forced to participate. But other individuals would not be forced to support you either. 

>
Exactly.  The recipients of socialist entitlement programs want to force the rest of us to provide for them because they're just too lazy and irresponsible to take care of their own needs.  Anyone that's ever studied Maslow's hierarchy of needs understands we all have the same basic needs thrust upon us by God/nature.  It's up to us to meet our own needs, not force someone else to do it.  You cannot mix freedom and slavery.


And the socialists/communists/marxists/proregressives are free to move to another country that adheres to the socialist views.  Notice that most of them don't... because the socialist countries don't work and they know it.  They really don't want to live under a socialist tyranny.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46342

Report this Feb. 27 2013, 12:45 pm

Quote: Lone Palm @ Feb. 27 2013, 12:38 pm

>Your system is based on greed and fear and you see that as a good thing?

>I look at it with a neutral point of view. It is what exists given human nature. When things go bad, people revert to their  baser instincts. Greed is not a bad thing. It motivates indivduals to better their circumstances. Along the way, individuals realized their circumstances can be improved by helping others, which is achieved by expanding economic wealth (the totality of goods and services in a market). But remember, socialism removes fear to permit excessive greed, which is bad when taken alone and unchecked. Furthermore, it is the reason why socialism and capitalism cannot be combined. 

>Also, greed and fear do not form the basis of capitalism. The basis of capitalism is the combination of sound money, voluntary associations, and private property for the purpose of creating savings by underconsuming, so that savings can be converted into a more valuable commodity or service. Greed and fear are simply regulators.
And one could be twice as "greedy" as Bill Gates, George Soros & Warren Buffett combined.... that doesn't mean that theyll earn more money.

Gawain_VIII

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 191

Report this Feb. 27 2013, 12:49 pm

First off... let's get some things sorted out here.


SOCIALISM: an ECONOMIC system by which SOCIETY at-large share equal ownership and COOPERATIVE management of all property and means of production.


CAPITALISM: an ECONOMIC system in which PRIVATE ownership of CAPITAL goods determine the management and means of production for PROFIT.


FREE-MARKET: an economic system from which the consumption of goods by the consumer determine the means and method of production. May be socialist, capitalist, or any variation between the two extremes.


COMMUNISM: a POLITICAL system which attempts to bring about a SOCIALIST society through PUBLIC (i.e. government, not society or community) ownership of the means of production.


LIBERTY: Freedom provided an individual by virtue of the ABILITY TO CHOOSE!!!!


So, let's recap. There will be a test on this at the end of the semester.


Socialism is not evil and can be quite balancing in small areas roughly the size of a large town/small city (however history has shown it is not sustainably effective over large populations).


Capitalism is not evil and is supremely effective an efficient and can be sustained perpetually. Income disparity is a common, unavoidable byproduct.


Communism is not the same as socialism.  Communism is evil.  Communism used force and coercion to make people do something they don't want to do. They lie and say they're bringing about Socialism, but it's really not because it's government-controled and not society-controlled.


Free-market is the natural state of economics--from bartering salt and sea shells to trading stocks on Wall St., it's all some variant of the free market.  To what extent that market is allowed to produce and grow depends significantly on the system of control and management which is set up, socialist vs. capitalist, both of which have benefits and drawbacks.


The big thing to remember is the definition of LIBERTY!  That is the defining factor which drives my political opinions (and my votes).


I may not like everyone's choices.  Not everyone makes good choices--I've made some pretty bad ones myself (just ask my future ex-wife).  But they were MY choices to make and I will reap the benefits or suffer the consequences FREELY precisely because I was free to choose.  When someone is rewarded or punished based on a decision which he/she had no input--that's where freedom disappears--when Big Brother starts making your choices and you have no form of redress... totalitarianism ensues.


ROBERT CHARLES GRAHAM, Vice Admiral
U.S.S Gawain NCC-91980
Commanding Officer, Frontier Fleet
sto-frontier-fleet.proboards.com

fireproof78

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 342

Report this Feb. 27 2013, 1:10 pm

^^


Exactly my point. Socialism is not evil, but will in the end be unsustainable and ruin a country. Time and again this has been proven true within many human societies.


 


Also, socialism does not promote personal responsibility or motivation to succeed. Even in smaller countries were socialism is more common, the work ethic suffers and people have no desire to work any harder than absolutely necessary.


 


In addition, part of my contention against socialism is that it takes away from those who have earned it. I am for helping out my neighbor and things like that and guess what? The government doesn't have to tell me to help those people. Generosity can grow out of human compassion rather than mandates from authorities.


However, removal of private property by goverment entities does not create equality-it creates fear to make more.

wissa

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 4031

Report this Feb. 28 2013, 9:27 am

Quote: fireproof78 @ Feb. 27 2013, 1:10 pm

>

>^^

>Exactly my point. Socialism is not evil, but will in the end be unsustainable and ruin a country. Time and again this has been proven true within many human societies.

>Also, socialism does not promote personal responsibility or motivation to succeed. Even in smaller countries were socialism is more common, the work ethic suffers and people have no desire to work any harder than absolutely necessary.

>In addition, part of my contention against socialism is that it takes away from those who have earned it. I am for helping out my neighbor and things like that and guess what? The government doesn't have to tell me to help those people. Generosity can grow out of human compassion rather than mandates from authorities.

>However, removal of private property by goverment entities does not create equality-it creates fear to make more.

>


why don't you just go ahead and ignore all the countries in the world that successfully combine socialism and capitalism. 


We welcome st.com refugees! click on the image

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46342

Report this Feb. 28 2013, 9:40 am

Quote: wissa @ Feb. 28 2013, 9:27 am

Quote: fireproof78 @ Feb. 27 2013, 1:10 pm

>

>

>^^

>Exactly my point. Socialism is not evil, but will in the end be unsustainable and ruin a country. Time and again this has been proven true within many human societies.

>Also, socialism does not promote personal responsibility or motivation to succeed. Even in smaller countries were socialism is more common, the work ethic suffers and people have no desire to work any harder than absolutely necessary.

>In addition, part of my contention against socialism is that it takes away from those who have earned it. I am for helping out my neighbor and things like that and guess what? The government doesn't have to tell me to help those people. Generosity can grow out of human compassion rather than mandates from authorities.

>However, removal of private property by goverment entities does not create equality-it creates fear to make more.

>

why don't you just go ahead and ignore all the countries in the world that successfully combine socialism and capitalism. 

Depends on the criteria for determining if it's "successful?"  If it's to destroy capitalism... then there are a few.

wissa

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 4031

Report this Feb. 28 2013, 9:51 am

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 28 2013, 9:40 am

Quote: wissa @ Feb. 28 2013, 9:27 am

Quote: fireproof78 @ Feb. 27 2013, 1:10 pm

>

>

>

>^^

>Exactly my point. Socialism is not evil, but will in the end be unsustainable and ruin a country. Time and again this has been proven true within many human societies.

>Also, socialism does not promote personal responsibility or motivation to succeed. Even in smaller countries were socialism is more common, the work ethic suffers and people have no desire to work any harder than absolutely necessary.

>In addition, part of my contention against socialism is that it takes away from those who have earned it. I am for helping out my neighbor and things like that and guess what? The government doesn't have to tell me to help those people. Generosity can grow out of human compassion rather than mandates from authorities.

>However, removal of private property by goverment entities does not create equality-it creates fear to make more.

>

why don't you just go ahead and ignore all the countries in the world that successfully combine socialism and capitalism. 

Depends on the criteria for determining if it's "successful?"  If it's to destroy capitalism... then there are a few.


well my criteria is a country that is doing at least as well financially as, say, yours but still provides social programs that actually work.  There are a lot of countries like that


We welcome st.com refugees! click on the image

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46342

Report this Feb. 28 2013, 9:54 am

Quote: wissa @ Feb. 28 2013, 9:51 am

>

>well my criteria is a country that is doing at least as well financially as, say, yours but still provides social programs that actually work.  There are a lot of countries like that

>
Considering that socialism is destroying capitalism in the USA, I think you've made my point.  With over half the federal budget set up for redistribution of wealth, people are learning that it's not worth it to try being an entrepreneur, or even work.  Plus the trillions in debt (not counting unfunded liabilities,) I wouldn't say that we're doing well financially.

wissa

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 4031

Report this Feb. 28 2013, 10:07 am

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 28 2013, 9:54 am

Quote: wissa @ Feb. 28 2013, 9:51 am

>

>

>well my criteria is a country that is doing at least as well financially as, say, yours but still provides social programs that actually work.  There are a lot of countries like that

>
Considering that socialism is destroying capitalism in the USA, I think you've made my point.  With over half the federal budget set up for redistribution of wealth, people are learning that it's not worth it to try being an entrepreneur, or even work.  Plus the trillions in debt (not counting unfunded liabilities,) I wouldn't say that we're doing well financially.


I havn't made your point at all.    I'm starting to think you are incabable of having a real discussion about anything.  Anything anyone else said is just a starting point for you to spout the same rhetoric.


We welcome st.com refugees! click on the image

darmokattanagra

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 393

Report this Feb. 28 2013, 10:24 am

Watch out, wissa. If you don't let him run the argument in circles he'll "ignore" you.


fireproof78

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 342

Report this Feb. 28 2013, 11:00 am

Quote: wissa @ Feb. 28 2013, 9:27 am

Quote: fireproof78 @ Feb. 27 2013, 1:10 pm

>

>

>^^

>Exactly my point. Socialism is not evil, but will in the end be unsustainable and ruin a country. Time and again this has been proven true within many human societies.

>Also, socialism does not promote personal responsibility or motivation to succeed. Even in smaller countries were socialism is more common, the work ethic suffers and people have no desire to work any harder than absolutely necessary.

>In addition, part of my contention against socialism is that it takes away from those who have earned it. I am for helping out my neighbor and things like that and guess what? The government doesn't have to tell me to help those people. Generosity can grow out of human compassion rather than mandates from authorities.

>However, removal of private property by goverment entities does not create equality-it creates fear to make more.

>

why don't you just go ahead and ignore all the countries in the world that successfully combine socialism and capitalism. 


The combination is not "successful" because socialism becomes the dominant force within that country. In turn, that dominance creates unfunded liabilities, laziness, apathy and marginilization of the country.


I don't "ignore" them any more than I ignore the problems with capatalism. There are problems, but capatalism provides the freedom to make changes and work to improve society rather than having to labor under a government program promising to make things better.


My ultimate problem with socialism is lack of respect for individuals, their rights and their property. Socialism does nothing to value individuals except as producers to fund the goverment programs. I have no problem with social programs, but charity is often more generous and more effective than government intervention.


John Adams, to loosely quote him, stated that when lack of respect for personal property becomes the norm in a society, all you do is create a vicious cycle of the takers demanding more from the producers. That isn't equality and that isn't freedom.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46342

Report this Feb. 28 2013, 12:16 pm

Quote: wissa @ Feb. 28 2013, 10:07 am

>I havn't made your point at all.    I'm starting to think you are incabable of having a real discussion about anything.  Anything anyone else said is just a starting point for you to spout the same rhetoric.

>
incapable?  Really, Wissa?  You know better than that.  You know I study the enemies of liberty more than most anyone else.  I've read the works of Hitler, Marx and Obama (among many others) and understand how it works.  Socialism is all about the government taking from one group of people and giving it to another in order to to have power over and enslave everyone.  How many millions of people have been murdered for the socialist cause (for the "good of society", of course?)  How many trillions of dollars has been destroyed by socialism?  How many more destruction do socialists want?


What gives someone else the right to my life?  If Group A can take from Group B the fruits of their labors, why should Group B work at all if it's easier to just join Group A?  Why scrimp and save and invest and work hard if the rewards of your toils are just going to go to someone else?  Don't you understand that the more government takes, the more it wants later?  And the more it wants, the more it takes.  It's unending.  And now we're losing over 50% of our income and can no longer grow business or invest.  Why do you think that the engine of the world is grinding to a halt?

wissa

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 4031

Report this Feb. 28 2013, 12:21 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 28 2013, 12:16 pm

Quote: wissa @ Feb. 28 2013, 10:07 am

>

>I havn't made your point at all.    I'm starting to think you are incabable of having a real discussion about anything.  Anything anyone else said is just a starting point for you to spout the same rhetoric.

>
incapable?  Really, Wissa?  You know better than that.  You know I study the enemies of liberty more than most anyone else.  I've read the works of Hitler, Marx and Obama (among many others) and understand how it works.  Socialism is all about the government taking from one group of people and giving it to another in order to to have power over and enslave everyone.  How many millions of people have been murdered by socialism (for the "good of society", of course?)  How many trillions of dollars has been destroyed by socialism?  How many more destruction do socialists want?

What gives someone else the right to my life?  If Group A can take from Group B the fruits of their labors, why should Group B work at all if it's easier to just join Group A?  Why scrimp and save and invest and work hard if the rewards of your toils are just going to go to someone else?  Why do you think that the engine of the world is grinding to a halt?


and there you go.  No attempt at all to address my points that many western nations are able to combine socialism and capitalism very successfully.  Or that unbridled capitalism leads to 9 year olds sewing our clothes and working in coal mines.  You just go off on your own rhetoric yet again.


We welcome st.com refugees! click on the image

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46342

Report this Feb. 28 2013, 12:47 pm

Quote: wissa @ Feb. 28 2013, 12:21 pm

>and there you go.  No attempt at all to address my points that many western nations are able to combine socialism and capitalism very successfully.  Or that unbridled capitalism leads to 9 year olds sewing our clothes and working in coal mines.  You just go off on your own rhetoric yet again.
But you just say it's successful, but only if the goal is to kill capitalism.  When the government takes a majority of someone's income, how can they successfully build a business?  They can't!  But socialists already know this.


Think of a runner - which time would be faster: the one without a backpack increasing their weight by 100% or without?  Socialism is that weight.


What's wrong with a child working?  It's only been the recent history that some people consider it bad that a child has a job.  I'm not talking about enslaving someone to do labor, I'm talking about a child choosing to work somewhere and earning money for their labor and gaining skills.  Remember, capitalism can't force children (or anyone else) to work.  I worked as a child - there's nothing wrong with it.


 


Now you can try answering my questions.

wissa

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 4031

Report this Feb. 28 2013, 12:47 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 28 2013, 12:16 pm

Quote: wissa @ Feb. 28 2013, 10:07 am

>

>I havn't made your point at all.    I'm starting to think you are incabable of having a real discussion about anything.  Anything anyone else said is just a starting point for you to spout the same rhetoric.

>
incapable?  Really, Wissa?  You know better than that.  You know I study the enemies of liberty more than most anyone else.  I've read the works of Hitler, Marx and Obama (among many others) and understand how it works.  Socialism is all about the government taking from one group of people and giving it to another in order to to have power over and enslave everyone.  How many millions of people have been murdered for the socialist cause (for the "good of society", of course?)  How many trillions of dollars has been destroyed by socialism?  How many more destruction do socialists want?

What gives someone else the right to my life?  If Group A can take from Group B the fruits of their labors, why should Group B work at all if it's easier to just join Group A?  Why scrimp and save and invest and work hard if the rewards of your toils are just going to go to someone else?  Don't you understand that the more government takes, the more it wants later?  And the more it wants, the more it takes.  It's unending.  And now we're losing over 50% of our income and can no longer grow business or invest.  Why do you think that the engine of the world is grinding to a halt?


and seriously, how dare you trivialize the acts of Hitler by putting him in the same sentence as Obama and Marx.


We welcome st.com refugees! click on the image

Recently logged in

Users browsing this forum: miklamar

Forum Permissions

You cannot post new topics in this forum

You cannot reply to topics in this forum

You cannot delete posts in this forum