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Socialism

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Created by: DUKAT!!!!

darmokattanagra

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POSTS: 397

Report this Feb. 26 2013, 8:14 pm

Smells like bullsh!t in here.

fireproof78

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Report this Feb. 26 2013, 9:31 pm

I do not want socialism and have no desire to live in a socialist country-though mine is rapidly becoming that way.


 


I agree with other posters that socialism has been tried, and failed, in many different places, times, countries and peoples. The problem with socialism is it gives no incentive for people to become better, to achieve more when they can just get by. Challenging humanity to do work for what they have makes it that much more worth while. In that way, humanity can be valued and respected if their personal rights and freedoms are respected.


 

humanityresurrected

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POSTS: 196

Report this Feb. 27 2013, 4:21 am

http://kibblegames.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Dan-Pink-What-Motivates-Us.pdf


 


http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_motivation.html


fireproof78 typed;


"The problem with socialism is it gives no incentive for people to become better, to achieve more when they can just get by."




opinion? One could argue for any "ism".


 


edit! Here's a thought!, 


"You can tell what they are by what they do" matthew 7:16
What You are shouts so loudly in my ears, i cannot hear what you say. So what we are communicates far more eloquently that anything we say or do. We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. Habits can be learned and un-learned, but i also know its not a quick fix. It involves a process and a tremendous commitment. Into every individual is a marvelous power of good and evil- the silent unconscious, unseen influence of their life. This is simply the constant radiation of what man really is, not what we pretend to be. 

"It is impossible for us to break the law. We can only break ourselves from the law." That show the show every year at Christmas, no not "A Christmas story". breaking deeply embedded habitual tendencies such as procrastination, impatience, criticalness, or selfishness. that violate the basic principles of human effectiveness involves more than a little willpower and a few minor changes in our lives. We could spend weeks, months, even years laboring with the personal ethic, trying to change our attitudes (altitude) and behaviors and not even begin to approach the phenomenon of change that occurs spontaneously when we see things differently. "for every thousand hacking at the leaves of evil, there is one striking at the root." i forget ole whats his name!


Who's job is it to end poverty? Poverty refers to being unable to afford basic human needs, which commonly includes clean and fresh water, nutrition, health care, education, clothing and shelter.

Lone Palm

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POSTS: 207

Report this Feb. 27 2013, 8:03 am

[quote]


It doesn't work unless everybody wants it to.


[/quote]


That's why Socialism is a ponzy scheme. Everybody must either turn a blind eye to the fundamentals of economics and liberty for it to work, or force must be used to obtain everyone's participation, which remains involuntary.

humanityresurrected

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POSTS: 196

Report this Feb. 27 2013, 8:30 am

was it USSR whom said," under socialism we only had one choice, and not get what we want", and now they say, "we have many choices and have no money to get what we want"


Who's job is it to end poverty? Poverty refers to being unable to afford basic human needs, which commonly includes clean and fresh water, nutrition, health care, education, clothing and shelter.

Lone Palm

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POSTS: 207

Report this Feb. 27 2013, 8:39 am

Under capitalism, motivation stems from creating opportunity through the use of one's own capital (or another's by voluntary consent), but at the personal risk of losing that capital. So while greed, the motivation to better one's circumstances, is a factor, it is also checked by the motivation of fear, as individuals do not want to worsen their circumstances. Socialism alters motivational dynamic. The social safety net, provided under socialism, is a mechanism that transfers individual risk to the whole with the effect of minimizing fear and permitting excessive greed. If a problem arises under socialism, an individual has greater motivation to sell out everybody else, as their loss is minimized. Too soon, everybody competes to sell out one another.


Aside from motivation, socialism fails with regard to private property, as an aim for socialism is the abolishment of private property. But private property is more than material items. Ultimately, private property is one's own body. The protection of private property is a safety buffer between the individual and government, so that the oligarchy, euphemistically called government, does not become an abusive force whereby an individual is coerced into involuntary acts. Socialism seeks to abolish the safety buffer, the check against totalitarianism, and thus guarantees its own perversion. 


darmokattanagra will no doubt interject that Socialism is an economic system rather than a political system. But I counter, noting that political systems are a product of the economic system. A rigid economy will produce a rigid politically system that will in turn use tyrannical measures to reinforce, stimulate, or bailout the economy. In constrast, a fundamentally sound economy, where liberties are maximied, does not require government stimulation or bailouts. 

Lone Palm

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POSTS: 207

Report this Feb. 27 2013, 9:04 am

unbridled capitalism doesn't work.  Unless you think 9 year old working in coalmines and factories is acceptable. - wissa


Numerous factors are in play. Unbridled capitalism has not been allowed to work, because government has always been used to grant favoritism given its power to intervene in the free market, laws against child labor being an example. The fact is that child labor laws monoplize work for adults by forcibly excluding children. This also permits employees, since their bargaining power has been artifically ncreased,  to legally extort wages from employers. The reason is no different from why the majority of white northerners wanted to end slavery... it was to steal jobs from black people and monopolize the job market for themselve... only this time it's with children. 


Most children are eager to please their parents and are often self-motivated to perform productive work. But many children are treated with condenscention and told they are too young. This is sad, because they are discouraged from an active existence and are directed instead to a passive existence marked by laziness. Look at the average 12 year old who wants a job, but the average 16 year old who has grown accustomed to everything being provided for him. 


Finally, even if one does not accept the notion of a child working, and that decision belongs to the parents, capitalism provides technological advancement. Technology may remove or diminish undesirable work and hazardous environments.


  

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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POSTS: 46360

Report this Feb. 27 2013, 9:17 am

Quote: Lone Palm @ Feb. 27 2013, 8:39 am

>The social safety net, provided under socialism, is a mechanism that transfers individual risk to the whole with the effect of minimizing fear and permitting excessive greed. If a problem arises under socialism, an individual has greater motivation to sell out everybody else, as their loss is minimized. Too soon, everybody competes to sell out one another.
Just like the bailouts and all the green energy "investments" done by Obama to companies that have gone out of business.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Feb. 27 2013, 9:23 am

Quote: Lone Palm @ Feb. 27 2013, 8:39 am

>darmokattanagra will no doubt interject that Socialism is an economic system rather than a political system. But I counter, noting that political systems are a product of the economic system. A rigid economy will produce a rigid politically system that will in turn use tyrannical measures to reinforce, stimulate, or bailout the economy. In constrast, a fundamentally sound economy, where liberties are maximied, does not require government stimulation or bailouts. 
I was just going to say the same thing, although just not as well.


Capitalism is an outgrowth of liberty.  Socialism is the opposite.

Lone Palm

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POSTS: 207

Report this Feb. 27 2013, 9:35 am

I was just going to say the same thing, although just not as well.


Thank you. But I got to say...


 


 


Capitalism is an outgrowth of liberty.


That's a quote I'm adding to my files. 

darmokattanagra

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POSTS: 397

Report this Feb. 27 2013, 9:35 am

Fireproof - The problem with socialism is it gives no incentive for people to become better, to achieve more when they can just get by.

Isn't becoming better and achieving more incentive enough?


Lone Palm - That's why Socialism is a ponzy scheme. Everybody must either turn a blind eye to the fundamentals of economics and liberty for it to work, or force must be used to obtain everyone's participation, which remains involuntary.

I'm a socialist. What about my liberty? Why should I be forced to participate in the capitalist system?


So while greed, the motivation to better one's circumstances, is a factor, it is also checked by the motivation of fear, as individuals do not want to worsen their circumstances.

Your system is based on greed and fear and you see that as a good thing?


darmokattanagra will no doubt interject that Socialism is an economic system rather than a political system. But I counter, noting that political systems are a product of the economic system.


I agree that our political system is the product of our economic system. Capitalism will always lead to plutocracy.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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POSTS: 46360

Report this Feb. 27 2013, 9:56 am

Quote: Lone Palm @ Feb. 27 2013, 9:35 am

>

>I was just going to say the same thing, although just not as well.

>Thank you. But I got to say...

style="margin: 0px 0px 3px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: 12px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #6a6a6a; clear: both; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; line-height: 16px;"> 

style="margin: 0px 0px 3px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: 12px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #6a6a6a; clear: both; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; line-height: 16px;">Capitalism is an outgrowth of liberty.

style="margin: 0px 0px 3px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: 12px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #6a6a6a; clear: both; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; line-height: 16px;">That's a quote I'm adding to my files. 

>
I almost said that "capitalism is a product of liberty", but that would have been too much of a pun.

humanityresurrected

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POSTS: 196

Report this Feb. 27 2013, 11:53 am

Are we motivated by our thoughts? How about our hobbies? While Steve Wozniak was motivated by something bigger than himself(thought outside the box), the other Steve was a great leader. (maybe) Together they made a great team, so then maybe people motivate us more. Would we have that ton computer in our rooms today?


Could our goals, mission statements, motivate us? Did humanity inspire and motivate Nikola Tesla? Is a gangster motivated by money, sex, drugs, or violence? 


The principles that we all are reffering to are not esoteric, mysterious, religious ideas, nor not unique. The becoming of self awareness, just like most of the major enduring religions are aware of human emotion. Somehow principles are self-evident, and can be easily validated by any individual. Its almost as if these principles, or natural laws, are part of the human condition, human consciousness, conscience. Just as enduring as social philosophies, and ethical sytems. 


 


It all refers to the example of principle fairness, out of which our whole concept of equity and justice. other examples would include integrity and honesty. They create the foundation of trust, which is essential to cooeration, and longterm personal, and iterpersonal growth. Another would be human dignity, which is the basic concept in the United States Declaration of Independence bespeaks of this value and principle. 


 


 sonal growth

Lone Palm

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Report this Feb. 27 2013, 12:38 pm

I'm a socialist. What about my liberty? Why should I be forced to participate in the capitalist system?


I find your statement ironic given that it advocates the principle of secession, pulling away from an undesirable assocation, a position that collectivists (liberals, socialists, nationalists, neoconservatives, etc.) reject. In a capitalist system, you shouldn't and wouldn't be forced to participate. But other individuals would not be forced to support you either. 


In a libertarian society, which would strictly adhere to the rules of capitalism (private property, voluntary associations, and sound -- market-based -- money) you would be free to use your private property in manners best fit to your desires, so long as you do not violate the private property rights of others outside your property, whether it be private or a collective ownership. If you, and others with a like mentality, wanted to secede from the State and pool your resources into a shared commune (a public domain) than you would be free to do so. Yet again, the shared commune would be restricted to its members and could not force its values onto those outside its territory.


Ron Paul explains it best: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21fi6mYjhKI


Your system is based on greed and fear and you see that as a good thing?


I look at it with a neutral point of view. It is what exists given human nature. When things go bad, people revert to their  baser instincts. Greed is not a bad thing. It motivates indivduals to better their circumstances. Along the way, individuals realized their circumstances can be improved by helping others, which is achieved by expanding economic wealth (the totality of goods and services in a market). But remember, socialism removes fear to permit excessive greed, which is bad when taken alone and unchecked. Furthermore, it is the reason why socialism and capitalism cannot be combined. 


Also, greed and fear do not form the basis of capitalism. The basis of capitalism is the combination of sound money, voluntary associations, and private property for the purpose of creating savings by underconsuming, so that savings can be converted into a more valuable commodity or service. Greed and fear are simply regulators.


Capitalism will always lead to plutocracy.


Socialism would lead to a plutocracy. 51% vote to disenfranchise the 49% into slavery... the 51% eventually fractures into a new majority/minority of 26% and 25% when taken in context of the original whole. The new majority of 26% votes the remaining into slavery... and the cycle continues... only it is maximized, because individual loss has been shifted to the masses. 

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Feb. 27 2013, 12:39 pm

Quote: humanityresurrected @ Feb. 27 2013, 11:53 am

>It all refers to the example of principle fairness, out of which our whole concept of equity and justice. other examples would include integrity and honesty.
But some people have redefined "fairness" to mean something else entirely.  Instead of everyone being able to keep what they earn as fair, they say that stealing from those that earn and redistributing to those that don't is fair.


Take the USA tax system right now....  One dollar is taxed highly (the majority taken) and one is not only untaxed, but added to.... just because of who had the money.  That type of discrimination is not fair, but the socialists love it.

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