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Socialism

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Created by: DUKAT!!!!

leroybrock

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POSTS: 213

Report this Feb. 12 2013, 3:55 pm

If you're not going to provide a source for such vague and questionable statistical claims I'm not going to bother taking it in context.

I Am Ultra Narcissus.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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POSTS: 46303

Report this Feb. 12 2013, 3:58 pm

Quote: Irina Galliulin @ Feb. 12 2013, 3:50 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 12 2013, 3:42 pm

Quote: Irina Galliulin @ Feb. 12 2013, 3:23 pm

>

>

>

>If you don't work, everybody doesn't eat.

>
Not sure what you're saying here.

I'm saying that if people don't work, the whole society is affected, which is motivation for people to work harder.

But that's too macro for the majority of people and, for the most part, not motivating.  Who determines what's for the good of society?  We see our own lives and do what we can to meet our own needs.  To do so, we must provide something of value to society so we have the ability to meet our own need.

Irina Galliulin

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POSTS: 38

Report this Feb. 12 2013, 4:03 pm

"We see our own lives and do what we can to meet our own needs."


Why just our own? If somebody needed your help, wouldn't you help them?


Катя

leroybrock

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POSTS: 213

Report this Feb. 12 2013, 4:03 pm

Someone arguing for a libertarian outcome calling someone a troll is just laughable. At least such nonsense has made me jolly. Good show sir and have fun with your armchair economics.

I Am Ultra Narcissus.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46303

Report this Feb. 12 2013, 4:11 pm

Quote: Irina Galliulin @ Feb. 12 2013, 4:03 pm

>

>"We see our own lives and do what we can to meet our own needs."

>Why just our own? If somebody needed your help, wouldn't you help them?

>
Maybe.  There is nothing wrong with helping others, but there's also a limit.


For example, I help with a soup kitchen and we told people that if they came too often (basically abusing the privilige of getting free food,) then they needed to help.  Some got really upset and said they'd go get their free meal somewhere else.  Others (small minority) were very much enthusiastic to help out.  (I actually hired one to work for me.)


 


But this isn't about "helping".... go back to the basics of this conversation - the idea that all people will live for others and trade their work, their skills & time for nothing.  Nobody has the right to demand that of me and I don't have the right to demand that of anyone else.


 


One of my favorite books is "Atlas Shrugged."  In it, there's an oath that makes a lot of sense: "I swear by my life, and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

Irina Galliulin

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POSTS: 38

Report this Feb. 12 2013, 4:17 pm

I guess that makes sense, but sometimes its not people taking advantage, sometimes they actually aren't good at working. What about people with mental disabilities? Maybe they can't work well. In capitalism, they would grow poorer and poorer. Technically it's fair, but it's horrible anyway.


Катя

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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POSTS: 46303

Report this Feb. 12 2013, 4:42 pm

Quote: Irina Galliulin @ Feb. 12 2013, 4:17 pm

>

>I guess that makes sense, but sometimes its not people taking advantage, sometimes they actually aren't good at working. What about people with mental disabilities? Maybe they can't work well. In capitalism, they would grow poorer and poorer. Technically it's fair, but it's horrible anyway.

>
Why is it horrible for you to pursue happiness.... and succeed or fail on your own merits?  Yes, some people succeed a lot more than the rest and some people never really do well.  It's like some people are taller or smarter or more athletic or handsome and others are not.


Yes... it is fair that someone won the Superbowl and the other 31 teams didn't.  Yes, it is fair that I can't sing a note, but others rock the world.  Yes, it is fair that we get a choice of competing products - which means some win and some lose.  Yes, it is fair that you get to do what you want to do and have the possibility to succeed!



Since you're in school, think of it this way... instead of money, think of grades.  Let's say you work really hard and are a straight A student.  But one of your classmates won't apply themselves and pass the class.  Should you lose part of your grade and have it given to that other person?  What about if the classmate just didn't have the aptitude to pass?  Should they get part of your points so they can pass?  (Note:  This has been a question that has been asked at multiple schools across the country.  You can look it up yourself.)


Speaking of school... it reminded me of a time when I was in college - a group of students wanted to do the tests as a group instead of individually.  I fought against it, but the professor decided to do it.  A handful of us studied the way we normally do and basically did the first test while the majority of the rest of the class didn't help at all.  We all got the same grade - even thought only a few of us did all the work.  The next exam, the professor allowed us to choose - we can be part of the group or we could do it individually.  All of us that did it individually passed, but nobody in the group passed the second exam because they were counting on someone else to do it.  The professor didn't let the communal test taking go to a third test, but everyone was stuck with their grades.  Yes, that's a real life example.



The vast majority of people have the capability to succeed at least at some level, but there are indeed a very small number of people that can't.  This is why family is important.  We also have many other private organizations, like churches, community groups, even national groups (like the Special Olympics) that excel at helping those that can't take care of themselves. And they're always looking for volunteers to help, so if that peaks your interest, please look into it.


 

darmokattanagra

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POSTS: 386

Report this Feb. 12 2013, 8:03 pm

Quote: leroybrock @ Feb. 12 2013, 3:38 pm

>

>It's strange that the imaginary Utopia of Socialism gets looked down upon while the imginary Utopia of Libertarianism gets people drooling. The claims of Libertarianism are more absurd than any claim made by Socialists yet Libertarianism is safe because no one's been crazy enough to devolve their society into a Libertarian looneybin yet. Having no real world examples to attach is both frustrating but at the same time we can be thankful that there aren't any real world examples.

>


What's strange is that people who look down upon "the imaginary Utopia of Socialism" call themselves Star Trek fans.


Also, considering the inevitable outcome of all free market systems is corporatism (state capitalism), one could say that America, as well as "socialist" dystopias like Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and Communist Russia/China/North Korea/etc. are examples of "libertarian" utopias.


But if that's not good enough, there's always this:


http://rt.com/usa/news/survivalists-build-idaho-fortress-600/


And this:


http://rt.com/usa/news/beck-independence-usa-own-077/

Lone Palm

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POSTS: 207

Report this Feb. 12 2013, 8:43 pm

It does not matter if it makes things "worthless" because materials do not need to be valuable. In a capitalist society, material value is important because it keeps money going around, but in a socialist society, it is not important. People probably would not need money.  - Irina


You're applying Keynesian economics to capitalism and the two don't mesh. Keynesian stresses excessive spending to keep money circulating, but excessive spending leads to debt, shrinks the economy and lessons wealth. Capitalism professes underconsumption and savings... savings generate interest for the owner/lender and circulate the money to the borrower, who expands the economic wealth by providing a new good or service.


People need money, not simply as a means to facilitate trade, but as a means of accounting. Money serves as the basis of interest rates, which indicate when to expand or contract resources across the economy. Without money, an economy will not grow to include new goods and services.


 

Lone Palm

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 207

Report this Feb. 12 2013, 8:56 pm

...right now the USA has a lot of drop-outs from high school... - Irina


The drop-outs are overwhelmingly from public schools. Could there be a correlation?


I went to both private school (from pre-school until 6th grade) and then to public school (from 7th to 12th grade). I wanted to drop out of high-school, because it was a waste of my time. Nothing new, other than the indoctrination crap, was introduced until 11 and 12th grades. A great example of the difference was Latin. I studied Latin for only two days a week for three years while in private school. I studied Latin, having to start from the beginning, in public school for five days a week over five years. And yet I got further in Latin in private school than I did in public school. 

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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POSTS: 46303

Report this Feb. 12 2013, 8:59 pm

Quote: Lone Palm @ Feb. 12 2013, 8:43 pm

>

>It does not matter if it makes things "worthless" because materials do not need to be valuable. In a capitalist society, material value is important because it keeps money going around, but in a socialist society, it is not important. People probably would not need money.  - Irina

>You're applying Keynesian economics to capitalism and the two don't mesh. Keynesian stresses excessive spending to keep money circulating, but excessive spending leads to debt, shrinks the economy and lessons wealth. Capitalism professes underconsumption and savings... savings generate interest for the owner/lender and circulate the money to the borrower, who expands the economic wealth by providing a new good or service.

>People need money, not simply as a means to facilitate trade, but as a means of accounting. Money serves as the basis of interest rates, which indicate when to expand or contract resources across the economy. Without money, an economy will not grow to include new goods and services.

>


Thanks Lone Palm ... I almost came back and addressed this part.


Also, there's nothing wrong with prices lowering over time as things become more ubiquitous and efficiencies emerge in the production of the item.  A replicator would definitely do just that as we figure it out.  (Think the new 3D printers coming on the market!)


Just like computers - much better than a decade ago and a whole lot less expensive.  But it still takes capital to produce.

Lone Palm

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POSTS: 207

Report this Feb. 12 2013, 9:08 pm

There is nothing wrong with playing the lottery in small amounts. I've been led to believe that part of the proceeds are given to schools. Since education is always under siege by Libertarians, Teahadists and Republicans they certainly need it. - leroybrock


Libertarians do not oppose education if handled privately in the free market. Libertarians object to the Federal Government having its hands in education, because the Constitution does not provide the Federal Government with the authority to do so. Furthermore, Libertarians object to compulsory attendance, because compulsory attendance negates volunteerism and the non-aggression principle, upon forms the basis of Libertarianism. 

Lone Palm

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POSTS: 207

Report this Feb. 12 2013, 9:21 pm

Thanks Lone Palm ...


You're welcome, BamBam. BTW, love the quote cited from "Atlas Shrugged". 

Lone Palm

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POSTS: 207

Report this Feb. 13 2013, 8:32 am

Also, there's nothing wrong with prices lowering over time as things become more ubiquitous and efficiencies emerge in the production of the item.  A replicator would definitely do just that as we figure it out.  (Think the new 3D printers coming on the market!)


Yes, deflation is a wonderful thing for it allows purchasing power to rise. It's a  benefit to all classes in society, especially the poor. 


People have been trained to think of deflation as a bad thing, because jobs may be lost in the process. But that's only one side of the equation and ignoring the other half. What about the individual worker whose productivity and salary are enhaned by technological gains? What of the customer who benefits from lower prices, and has more to save or spend elsewhere? 


3D printers are amazing. 

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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POSTS: 46303

Report this Feb. 13 2013, 9:05 am

Quote: Lone Palm @ Feb. 13 2013, 8:32 am

>3D printers are amazing. 
Yea.. I remember when they were only theory and we had a mockup of one in a Smart Home we used to show the possible future of some technologies.


Pretty soon, we won't be buying model kits from the store, we'll be buying the print file online and then we can print and build it.  Or we'll be able to replace the back plate off our phone and remote, create a tool, etc.

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