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Socialism

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Created by: DUKAT!!!!

Irina Galliulin

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POSTS: 38

Report this Feb. 12 2013, 1:18 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 12 2013, 7:52 am

Quote: Irina Galliulin @ Feb. 11 2013, 6:00 pm

>

>Schooling would make sure that humanity does not reach a "dumbed-down" point.
Really?  Is that why most college graduates nowadays can't pass an 8th grade exam from a century ago?

Also, take a look at how the USA is doing over time - it's getting worse and worse at educating people.  This is why we keep getting placed lower and lower in ranks compared to other nations and why the standardized tests are changing to make them easier (so scores aren't changing.)

According to the National Adult Literacy Survey:
- 42 million adult Americans can't read
- 50 million adults are limited to a 4th / 5th grade reading level
- 1/4 of teenagers drops out of high school
- 1/4 high school graduates has the equivalent or less of an eighth grade education.

 

 

 

If you really take a look at our "gubmunt edewkayshun & indocktrunayshun cystduuhhmm," you'll find that it's more about indoctrination than real education.  Kids are taught "memorize & regurgitate" instead of critical thinking.

You're talking about the United States in a capitalist society, and right now the USA has a lot of drop-outs from high school, but the USA is the only the 17th most educated country. "Memorize & regurgitate" is a problem in the USA, but that doesn't mean that the rest of the world is like that.


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FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Feb. 12 2013, 1:27 pm

Quote: Irina Galliulin @ Feb. 12 2013, 1:18 pm

>You're talking about the United States in a capitalist society, and right now the USA has a lot of drop-outs from high school, but the USA is the only the 17th most educated country. "Memorize & regurgitate" is a problem in the USA, but that doesn't mean that the rest of the world is like that.
Correct. I'm most familiar with the USA's system.  I know a little about a few other countries as we've comparative analyses of successes and failures, but it's more cursory than what I know and have researched about the system in the USA.


As for the USA being 17th... it depends on the specifics.  I've seen different comparisons showing different numbers based on specific area of study and grade.  But all of them agree that the USA is getting worse and worse and falling further behind.

Irina Galliulin

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 38

Report this Feb. 12 2013, 1:39 pm

What's the incentive to come to work each and every day when we don't have to anymore?=If you are a doctor, you work to cure sick people. If you are a firefighter, you work to save people/houses from fires. They work only so that they can help people!


Why would someone want to go to school for over 20 years to be a doctor if they'd rather just go out and play golf?=If they don't go to school and become a doctor, they won't be able to help when people get hurt. And it's not like you can play sports forever. People get bored sometimes and WANT something to do.


1) Look at the people who win the big lotteries - almost all of them stop working.


The type of person who enters a lottery is usually a capitalist or gambler, and with capitalists if they get their money they don't care.


2) Who's going to do the really bad jobs that need done but nobody really wants to do? Normal people. And what "really bad jobs"?


3) Look at your local community and see how many people volunteer their time for different things. My school has fundraisers for charities. Or take a look at a smaller subsection, like a church, where all members voluntarily attend, but very few actually invest their time/money to support the chuch.  This will be the same with any large group.  (Some call it a "5% Rule" - only five percent get involved and even less than that can be counted on.)I'm not religious, so I don't understand your reference.


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FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Feb. 12 2013, 2:01 pm

Quote: Irina Galliulin @ Feb. 12 2013, 1:39 pm

>

>What's the incentive to come to work each and every day when we don't have to anymore?=If you are a doctor, you work to cure sick people. If you are a firefighter, you work to save people/houses from fires. They work only so that they can help people!

>
Maybe I should have asked "WHY" instead of what.... they're two different things.  They do the same thing now, but the value of their work is rewarded.


If someone doesn't need to do something, then nothing is going to stop them from not doing it if they choose.


Now, don't get me wrong - are there some people who you can count on all the time?  Absolutely, but there are very few of them.


 


I've ran both corporate and volunteer organizations - volunteer is much harder to get things done as people don't have to do them. It's reality.

Irina Galliulin

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POSTS: 38

Report this Feb. 12 2013, 2:10 pm

The people know that they live in a socialist society. They do it for their society, for their people. Volunteer work is not phisically harder than work that gets paid for.


Also, you said that you donate money at church. Do you do that for a reward? No. But don't you find yourself doing it anyway? For the good of others?


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FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Feb. 12 2013, 2:10 pm

Quote: Irina Galliulin @ Feb. 12 2013, 1:39 pm

>Why would someone want to go to school for over 20 years to be a doctor if they'd rather just go out and play golf?=If they don't go to school and become a doctor, they won't be able to help when people get hurt. And it's not like you can play sports forever. People get bored sometimes and WANT something to do.
Is that why so much money is spent on entertainment?  Ever look at the studies of the amount of time people spend in front of the TV or playing computer games?  It's going up and up and up.


Most people want the easy way out - that's why they want other people to do all the work (as demanded by the socialists in multiple threads here.)  Take a look at our lives - we're always trying to make it easier and easier.


How often does someone grow their own food or raise their own meat?  How about wash clothes with a washboard?  Or many other things that we all can point to showing that we're always looking to make things easier / more efficient.


 


This idea that everyone will want to work if there's no impetus doesn't make sense.  Yes, some will, but we can't ascribe the ethic of a minority of people to the majority.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Feb. 12 2013, 2:34 pm

Quote: Irina Galliulin @ Feb. 12 2013, 1:39 pm

>1) Look at the people who win the big lotteries - almost all of them stop working.

>The type of person who enters a lottery is usually a capitalist or gambler, and with capitalists if they get their money they don't care.
A lot of people play the lottery.  I call it a "tax on the mathematically challenged."


It's just an example of what people choose to do when they don't need to worry about money.


But with true capitalists, we create wealth by creating value (product and services) that others purchase.  We then invest that revenue to make what we do better.  And we have to compete with the rest of the market.


A real capitalist must meet the needs of others and goods/services are sold if they meet the demand.

Irina Galliulin

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 38

Report this Feb. 12 2013, 2:38 pm

Is that why so much money is spent on entertainment?  Ever look at the studies of the amount of time people spend in front of the TV or playing computer games?  It's going up and up and up.



    I have to agree with you on this. I use a computer for learning and message board-ing, but everyone I know is just OBSESSED with video games and TV.


Most people want the easy way out - that's why they want other people to do all the work (as demanded by the socialists in multiple threads here.)  Take a look at our lives - we're always trying to make it easier and easier.


How often does someone grow their own food or raise their own meat?  How about wash clothes with a washboard?  Or many other things that we all can point to showing that we're always looking to make things easier / more efficient.


This idea that everyone will want to work if there's no impetus doesn't make sense.  Yes, some will, but we can't ascribe the ethic of a minority of people to the majority.


     You are very correct about this (last paragraph). Socialism is a UTOPIAN idea. It only works if everybody agrees on it. You're right that everybody has to be willing to work, otherwise it won't work. Socialism may NOT work in today's society, but someday if everybody AGREES on it and everybody TRIES really hard, it wouldn't be such a bad idea.


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Irina Galliulin

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Report this Feb. 12 2013, 2:48 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 12 2013, 2:34 pm

>1) Look at the people who win the big lotteries - almost all of them stop working.

>The type of person who enters a lottery is usually a capitalist or gambler, and with capitalists if they get their money they don't care.
A lot of people play the lottery.  I call it a "tax on the mathematically challenged."


         LOL


It's just an example of what people choose to do when they don't need to worry about money.


          They should donate it. If they seriously think that they will win the lottery, then they are insanely stupid.


But with true capitalists, we create wealth by creating value (product and services) that others purchase.  We then invest that revenue to make what we do better.  And we have to compete with the rest of the market.


          I guess that makes sense, but with socialism everybody is more equal. I think that equality is very important.


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FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Feb. 12 2013, 2:58 pm

Quote: Irina Galliulin @ Feb. 12 2013, 1:39 pm

>2) Who's going to do the really bad jobs that need done but nobody really wants to do? Normal people. And what "really bad jobs"?
There's a lot of really tough and dirty jobs out there.  Take "Sewer Rat" for example.  Or how about an orderly (I did that for a while - gross!) I can think of a few others, but I I'm sure that people here are smart enough to know there are jobs that don't just have a draw.


Or how about doing something as simple as an outside job on a really bad weather day?


There are a lot of jobs that people really don't want to do, but because they have needs and society needs that job done, someone does it... for a price.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Feb. 12 2013, 3:07 pm

Quote: Irina Galliulin @ Feb. 12 2013, 1:39 pm

>3) Look at your local community and see how many people volunteer their time for different things. My school has fundraisers for charities. Or take a look at a smaller subsection, like a church, where all members voluntarily attend, but very few actually invest their time/money to support the chuch.  This will be the same with any large group.  (Some call it a "5% Rule" - only five percent get involved and even less than that can be counted on.)I'm not religious, so I don't understand your reference.
You're not part of any community organization that is run in part or mostly by volunteers?

leroybrock

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Report this Feb. 12 2013, 3:08 pm

There is nothing wrong with playing the lottery in small amounts. I've been led to believe that part of the proceeds are given to schools. Since education is always under siege by Libertarians, Teahadists and Republicans they certainly need it.

I Am Ultra Narcissus.

Irina Galliulin

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 38

Report this Feb. 12 2013, 3:13 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 12 2013, 3:07 pm

Quote: Irina Galliulin @ Feb. 12 2013, 1:39 pm

>

>3) Look at your local community and see how many people volunteer their time for different things. My school has fundraisers for charities. Or take a look at a smaller subsection, like a church, where all members voluntarily attend, but very few actually invest their time/money to support the chuch.  This will be the same with any large group.  (Some call it a "5% Rule" - only five percent get involved and even less than that can be counted on.)I'm not religious, so I don't understand your reference.
You're not part of any community organization that is run in part or mostly by volunteers?

I don't think so. Does a public school count?


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FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Feb. 12 2013, 3:21 pm

Quote: Irina Galliulin @ Feb. 12 2013, 2:10 pm

>

>The people know that they live in a socialist society. They do it for their society, for their people. Volunteer work is not phisically harder than work that gets paid for.

>
I didn't suggest that the jobs were harder - only that in this socialist "utopia" that keeps getting presented, people don't have to do them.  In a normal society, if you don't work, you don't eat.  If this mythical utopia, if people don't work, there's no consequences.

Irina Galliulin

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POSTS: 38

Report this Feb. 12 2013, 3:23 pm

If you don't work, everybody doesn't eat.


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