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Socialism

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Created by: DUKAT!!!!

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Feb. 11 2013, 9:32 am

Quote: God in an Alcove @ Feb. 11 2013, 3:30 am

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 09 2013, 9:37 am

>

>And you're free to donate to them.  You could even come to one of the many "soup kitchens" and food patries and donate your money and time.  But I don't believe in forcing you to support another, regardless of the "reason."  If I force you to pay for someone else's needs against your will, then you've just become a slave.

>

You said earlier that you were in the military. That's a reason.

But nobody forced me to be in the military - I chose to do so of my own accord.  The role of the US military is defense, not forcing others to subjugate themselves to the USA.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Feb. 11 2013, 9:42 am

Quote: God in an Alcove @ Feb. 11 2013, 3:33 am

>Maybe you have, but that doesn't mean I've seen it. I joined this community only several months ago, and due to my work/family schedule, I don't get to log in often. Needless to say, I missed any such links. So I'm asking you to post them again.
I'll see what I can do, but no promises right now as I don't have the links to the research right in front of me.  I highly encourage you to do your own research as you can learn a whole lot more from that than from reading my references (but at least it'll give you a start.)


 


Edit:  I found a few papers that I subscribe to, and according to them, they find that for every increase of 10% in unemployment benefits, there's a correlating of raising the average time unemployed by of 4-8% in the U.S.



 



 



But here's something that I found from Art Laffer (which I also found similar charts other places since source data was same):



[laffer]



 



.


 



The data for the chart came from BLS.


 


Now remember, other than the taxation / redistribution of wealth problem, we find that there are two other correlated problem:


1) The percentage of employed rises as benefits expand.


2) The duration employed is linked to the length of benefits


 


Think of it this way: If you received as much money as you wanted forever, why work?

Irina Galliulin

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Report this Feb. 11 2013, 6:00 pm

1. Obtaining Materials: nextdoor neighbor has replicator already, person walks to neighbor's house and asks "Can you give me parts for a replicator please?" Neighbor gives person parts that were manufactured by the neighbor's replicator because replicators can probably make small machine parts.


2. When I said "no jobs" I meant that jobs were not neccessary for everybody just for the money. However, there would still be teachers (except not getting paid) because many people care about the future generation's education enough to become a teacher.


3. Replicators make the materials/parts, the owner of the solar panel parts builds the solar panels.


4.Themselfs= English is a complicated language and I am in 9th grade. One spelling mistake is not unreasonable. I do use some of my free time to educate myself, but not specifically with spelling.


Most United States citizens know that Hawaii is a state, and Puerto Rico is a territory. If they do not know that, then I will agree that some people are under-educated, but that is just in our current society.(assuming that you a U.S. citizen)


There are hospitals. Sorry about the "no jobs". I should have written that better. What I meant to say is that nobody would work just to get paid. There would still be doctors, firefighters, police, etc, but they would be doing those jobs because they want to help people and they are able to help people. All that I meant by "no jobs" was people did things not just out of greed for money. It would probably be similar to volunteering.


I can't imagine nobody would want to go to school. As much as I hate some classes, most of it is interesting enough. There would be a need for schooling, because people DO have jobs. It is not about competition and getting well-paying jobs (that would be a school in a capitalist society), but about doing well at your job for the good of the community. If it is for the good of the community, anybody would/should agree that 6-7 hours of school every day is worth it.


Schooling would make sure that humanity does not reach a "dumbed-down" point.


"Humans are still animals, and when animals are given everything, they become domesticated and relying on the stuff being handed out and stop thinking for themselves after a time."=I would have to disagree with this statement because yes they are given everything, but they are GIVING at the same time. People do not just get provided for, they also provide for each other.


They do think for themselves, but they are also thinking about and caring for others.


People do rely on stuff and become domesticated, but with socialism, if they all somehow lose their "stuff" that they rely on, they can still rely on each other. As opposed to capitalism where people would care ONLY for themselves/their own family.


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Lone Palm

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Report this Feb. 11 2013, 9:51 pm

As opposed to capitalism where people would care ONLY for themselves/their own family.


Under capitalism, individuals offer care for others by providing better products and services than their competitors and through private charities. 

William_Shatner_Is_Canadi
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Report this Feb. 12 2013, 3:14 am

communism all the way comrades!!!

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Feb. 12 2013, 7:31 am

Quote: Irina Galliulin @ Feb. 11 2013, 6:00 pm

>

>1. Obtaining Materials: nextdoor neighbor has replicator already, person walks to neighbor's house and asks "Can you give me parts for a replicator please?" Neighbor gives person parts that were manufactured by the neighbor's replicator because replicators can probably make small machine parts.

>
So basically, you think that replicators will make everything pretty much worthless because replicators will be ubiquitous.  While this maybe partially true, not all things will be replicatable.  How do we get those?  How will those items be divided by people?  How can they be earned?


Also.. remember the Voyager episode "State of Flux" where the Kazon got the replicator technology?  What happened and why?


 

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Feb. 12 2013, 7:39 am

Quote: Irina Galliulin @ Feb. 11 2013, 6:00 pm

>2. When I said "no jobs" I meant that jobs were not neccessary for everybody just for the money. However, there would still be teachers (except not getting paid) because many people care about the future generation's education enough to become a teacher.

>...

>There are hospitals. Sorry about the "no jobs". I should have written that better. What I meant to say is that nobody would work just to get paid. There would still be doctors, firefighters, police, etc, but they would be doing those jobs because they want to help people and they are able to help people. All that I meant by "no jobs" was people did things not just out of greed for money. It would probably be similar to volunteering.
See, this is where theoretical utopia vs. reality conflict.


What's the incentive to come to work each and every day when we don't have to anymore?  Why would someone want to go to school for over 20 years to be a doctor if they'd rather just go out and play golf?   If I have all my material needs met, then why deal with all the work in obtaining the extra education and then getting up and dealing with the problems of work if I can do something fun?  If we had no real reason/demand to work, then most people won't.  Think about a few things:


1) Look at the people who win the big lotteries - almost all of them stop working.


2) Who's going to do the really bad jobs that need done but nobody really wants to do?


3) Look at your local community and see how many people volunteer their time for different things.  Or take a look at a smaller subsection, like a church, where all members voluntarily attend, but very few actually invest their time/money to support the chuch.  This will be the same with any large group.  (Some call it a "5% Rule" - only five percent get involved and even less than that can be counted on.)


 


 


 


 


This is a little story about four people named Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, and Nobody.


There was an important job to be done and Everybody was sure that Somebody would do it.


Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it.


Somebody got angry about that because it was Everybody's job.


Everybody thought that Anybody could do it, but Nobody realized that Everybody wouldn't do it.


It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Feb. 12 2013, 7:42 am

Quote: Irina Galliulin @ Feb. 11 2013, 6:00 pm

>4.Themselfs= English is a complicated language and I am in 9th grade. One spelling mistake is not unreasonable. I do use some of my free time to educate myself, but not specifically with spelling.
Let me guess.... you attend one of our gubmunt skewls and they're teaching you this socialist philosophy... It's not your fault.


I was taught the same thing when I was a kid, but then I started reading all the stuff they told me not too.


 


What I suggest is the same thing that Thomas Jefferson wrote his nephew (Peter): "Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."  While Jefferson was specifically talking about religion, I say it applies everywhere - always question!  Never accept anything at face value and most importantly, ask the question "WHY?"  Most teachers won't be happy with the questions, but there are some good teachers that welcome it.  After you understand WHY something, then you'll be able to logically think things through step by step.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Feb. 12 2013, 7:48 am

Quote: Irina Galliulin @ Feb. 11 2013, 6:00 pm

>I can't imagine nobody would want to go to school. As much as I hate some classes, most of it is interesting enough. There would be a need for schooling, because people DO have jobs. It is not about competition and getting well-paying jobs (that would be a school in a capitalist society), but about doing well at your job for the good of the community. If it is for the good of the community, anybody would/should agree that 6-7 hours of school every day is worth it.
Why don't you look up the graduation rate across America - it's really bad.


And if kids really wanted to be in school, how many of them volunteer to go during the summer instead of playing baseball, etc.?

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Feb. 12 2013, 7:52 am

Quote: Irina Galliulin @ Feb. 11 2013, 6:00 pm

>Schooling would make sure that humanity does not reach a "dumbed-down" point.
Really?  Is that why most college graduates nowadays can't pass an 8th grade exam from a century ago?


Also, take a look at how the USA is doing over time - it's getting worse and worse at educating people.  This is why we keep getting placed lower and lower in ranks compared to other nations and why the standardized tests are changing to make them easier (so scores aren't changing.)


According to the National Adult Literacy Survey:
- 42 million adult Americans can't read
- 50 million adults are limited to a 4th / 5th grade reading level
- 1/4 of teenagers drops out of high school
- 1/4 high school graduates has the equivalent or less of an eighth grade education.


 


 


 


If you really take a look at our "gubmunt edewkayshun & indocktrunayshun cystduuhhmm," you'll find that it's more about indoctrination than real education.  Kids are taught "memorize & regurgitate" instead of critical thinking.

darmokattanagra

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Report this Feb. 12 2013, 9:13 am

Bam, enough of this lame ass excuse that "Nobody" would step up to the plate and do what needed to be done. You're a f*cking veteran for Christ's sake.


And your assessment of public education is, as usual, doublethink bullsh!t. I went to public school, more recently than you, and in History class I was taught nothing but U.S. History over and over and over again. The only thing I was taught about other countries was that they are/were the bad guy. Then in high school, I was taught about economics and how all you really need to do is get a good job that pays a lot of money.


Like your signature says, you wrap a little bit of truth around a huge lie and hope we'll all swallow it. Children are being indoctrinated but not to be egalitarians or socialists, to be nationalists and capitalists.

Irina Galliulin

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Report this Feb. 12 2013, 12:35 pm

Quote: William_Shatner_Is_Canadian_337 @ Feb. 12 2013, 3:14 am

>

>communism all the way comrades!!!

>
Welcome to StarTrek.com comrade.)


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FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Feb. 12 2013, 12:51 pm

☭ = ☠


 


 


 


and if you don't believe me, research a little history.


 


How many millions were murdered by socialist governments?

Irina Galliulin

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Report this Feb. 12 2013, 1:05 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Feb. 12 2013, 7:31 am

Quote: Irina Galliulin @ Feb. 11 2013, 6:00 pm

>

>

>1. Obtaining Materials: nextdoor neighbor has replicator already, person walks to neighbor's house and asks "Can you give me parts for a replicator please?" Neighbor gives person parts that were manufactured by the neighbor's replicator because replicators can probably make small machine parts.

>
So basically, you think that replicators will make everything pretty much worthless because replicators will be ubiquitous.  While this maybe partially true, not all things will be replicatable.  How do we get those?  How will those items be divided by people?  How can they be earned?

Also.. remember the Voyager episode "State of Flux" where the Kazon got the replicator technology?  What happened and why?

 

It does not matter if it makes things "worthless" because materials do not need to be valuable. In a capitalist society, material value is important because it keeps money going around, but in a socialist society, it is not important. People probably would not need money. I agree with you that replicators would make many things worthless, but an object's worth doesn't make it better or worse. Just because something is cheeper/worth less, doesn't mean it's not as good as it was before replicators could make it.


"Not all things will be replicatable."=Like what? Replicators can't make living beings, but that's it. That would not be a problem, because slavery would not be allowed.


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FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Feb. 12 2013, 1:18 pm

Quote: Irina Galliulin @ Feb. 12 2013, 1:05 pm

>"Not all things will be replicatable."=Like what? Replicators can't make living beings, but that's it. That would not be a problem, because slavery would not be allowed.
Well, in Star Trek, latinum was not replicatable, so there was value in it.


But the most obvious is land - there's only so much of it.  The more scare and sought after something is, the more valuable it is. Let's say I wanted 1000 acres somewhere - how would I obtain it if we have nothing of value to trade for it?

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