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The destruction of Star Trek as we knew and loved it.

Quinten 1444

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POSTS: 1

Report this May. 08 2013, 11:34 pm

You are compleatly right, by the way romulans dont have tatoe's and there ships do not look like a giant hedghog like in the previous film.


And vulcan can't have been destroyed because the enterprise D visit's it later.


 

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 09 2013, 1:28 am

Quote: Quinten 1444 @ May. 08 2013, 11:34 pm

>romulans dont have tatoe's


you really cant back that up.The Romulan empire is pretty big, maybe theres a small romulan town where everyone likes tats.


and there ships do not look like a giant hedghog


again, you cant back that up because we never saw what a romulan civilian ship looked like before.


And vulcan can't have been destroyed because the enterprise D visit's it later.


Different universe/timeline so yes, Vulcan can be destroied.


 


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Mitchz95

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POSTS: 1830

Report this May. 09 2013, 5:53 am

The non-canon Countdown comics explained Nero's tattoos. As he put it:


"There was a tradition on Romulus that when a loved one died you would paint your grief upon your skin. Ancient symbols of love and loss. In time the paint would fade, and with it the period of mourning. Life would go on. We paint these symbols on our skin now. But we burn them deep. So that they will never fade. Because life does not go on. We died with our friends. We died with our families. We died with Romulus. And all that is left is revenge."


And there is in-universe support for the "classic" Trek universe surviving past 2387 (when Spock and Nero went back in time). The Temporal Cold War, for instance, was fought between factions based in the 28th through 31st centuries. And the Voyager episode "Living Witness" took place in the 3000s.


"The future is in the hands of those who explore... And from all the beauty they discover while crossing perpetually receding frontiers, they develop for nature and for humankind an infinite love." - Jacques Yves Cousteau

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 09 2013, 6:30 am

Quote: Mitchz95 @ May. 09 2013, 5:53 am

>The non-canon Countdown comics explained Nero's tattoos. As he put it:


yes but the movie itself contradicted the reasons given in the comic.


And there is in-universe support for the "classic" Trek universe surviving past 2387 (when Spock and Nero went back in time). The Temporal Cold War, for instance, was fought between factions based in the 28th through 31st centuries. And the Voyager episode "Living Witness" took place in the 3000s.


Sorry, neither of those those episodes prove "classic" Trek universe surviving past 2387.....


If Nero's actions caused a re-write of the timeline, then those episodes would just be examples of "possible" futures that might have been.


 


 


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Mitchz95

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POSTS: 1830

Report this May. 09 2013, 7:49 am

yes but the movie itself contradicted the reasons given in the comic.


How?


Sorry, neither of those those episodes prove "classic" Trek universe surviving past 2387.....


If Nero's actions caused a re-write of the timeline, then those episodes would just be examples of "possible" futures that might have been.


That sounds a bit far-fetched to me. The intentions of the writers was that those events did happen. And if Nero had rewritten the timeline, then history would have ended in 2387 and Archer never would have met Daniels, Janeway wouldn't have met Braxton, etc.


"The future is in the hands of those who explore... And from all the beauty they discover while crossing perpetually receding frontiers, they develop for nature and for humankind an infinite love." - Jacques Yves Cousteau

fireproof78

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POSTS: 342

Report this May. 09 2013, 8:08 am

The idea of parallel realities exists in almost every Trek incarnation. We actually see that the Mirror universe alternate history was generated by Cochrane killing the Vulcans on First Contact and using their technology to create the Terran Empire (an alternate explanation to the one shown in earlier comics as to where the split came from).


"In the Mirror, Darkly" shows that history was altered by time incursion due to the Tholians in "The Tholian Web." The interphrase phenomenon caused the USS Defiant to go back in time and space (perhaps because the Time Lords were not there to stop it ). The Terran Empire then uses the technology to built their Empire up even further.


In TOS we are even shown a bridge between alternate realities in "The Alternate Factor."


So while Abrams idea was not precisely done before, there is precedent to be set that Nero's incursion would cause a split.


In fact, there is a whole host of fan fiction that could be written if Nero's appearance happened at different points of time.

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 09 2013, 9:26 am

Quote: fireproof78 @ May. 09 2013, 8:08 am

Quote: /view_profile/ @

> We actually see that the Mirror universe alternate history was generated by Cochrane killing the Vulcans on First Contact and using their technology to create the Terran Empire (an alternate explanation to the one shown in earlier comics as to where the split came from).

saorry, you need to re-watch those Enterprise episodfes.Archer mentions the beginingings of the teren empire to be as far back as 300 [?] years before first contact.

"In the Mirror, Darkly" shows that history was altered by time incursion due to the Tholians in "The Tholian Web." The interphrase phenomenon caused the USS Defiant to go back in time and space (perhaps because the Time Lords were not there to stop it ).


again no, there was no change in their back history do do that shipThe Terran Empire then uses the technology to built their Empire up even further.


In TOS we are even shown a bridge between alternate realities in "The Alternate Factor."


this has no bearing on this debate


So while Abrams idea was not precisely done before, there is precedent to be set that Nero's incursion would cause a split.


as I stated, its a new concept in trek


 


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stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 09 2013, 9:30 am

Quote: Mitchz95 @ May. 09 2013, 7:49 am

>How?


by showing Neros wife with the tato


That sounds a bit far-fetched to me.


I dont see how, and its exactly what one would expect when you factor in what we have seen most of the time from time/history changing events.


if you need me to explain I have a very simple diagram I can show you.


The intentions of the writers was that those events did happen. And if Nero had rewritten the timeline, then history would have ended in 2387 and Archer never would have met Daniels, Janeway wouldn't have met Braxton, etc.


No, it would meen those events happened, and were later over written.


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leroybrock

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POSTS: 213

Report this May. 09 2013, 9:48 am

None of this argumentation about whether it's an alternative reality really matters. They stated in the movie that it's am alternate branching timeline. That's canon. That's the end of it, for it means that the people who are actually authorized to make decisions for our favorite series have spoken. 


I Am Ultra Narcissus.

Vger23

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POSTS: 6799

Report this May. 09 2013, 10:07 am

A couple of things:


 


1. The 'Romulans don't have tattoos" argument is idiotic. That's like saying "Humans are all white" or "Vulcans don't pierce their ears." There are billions and billions of people making up the Romulan race. There are CERTAINLY different cultures and appeareces within that race. Think of how stereotypical it is to assume an entire advanced race of people are all the same. Humans all look / act / dress differently, even within similar communities. Why can't some Romulans have tattoos?


2. It's true, the hologram of Nero's wife shows her with facial tattoos if you look close enough.


3. People still get confused between the concepts of "changing history" and "creating an alternate timeline." The 2009 movie depicts an alternate timeline which splintered off from the (ongoing) main timeline as a result of Nero's incursion. The universe that Star Trek and Star Trek Into Darkness take place in is a parallell universe co-existing with the original (and, as others have pointed out, potentially many other universes).

Mitchz95

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1830

Report this May. 09 2013, 10:28 am

by showing Neros wife with the tato


Never noticed that before. Huh.


Maybe he recorded that hologram during a period of mourning before the events of Countown?


I dont see how, and its exactly what one would expect when you factor in what we have seen most of the time from time/history changing events.


There's a first time for everything. And this event was unique, in that the black hole that was used to travel through time had just moments ago consumed the energy of a very unusual supernova. And that it was created by red matter rather than the death of a star.


if you need me to explain I have a very simple diagram I can show you.


I understand what you're saying. I'm just pointing out (or trying to) some in-universe evidence that the original timeline still exists.


No, it would meen those events happened, and were later over written.


Time is linear. If the JJverse had overwritten everything, the future factions never would have existed because history would have ended as soon as Nero went through the black hole, as demonstrated here:



Since the TCW factions did, do, and will exist, that means history continued past 2387 regardless of Nero's disappearance.


"The future is in the hands of those who explore... And from all the beauty they discover while crossing perpetually receding frontiers, they develop for nature and for humankind an infinite love." - Jacques Yves Cousteau

Mitchz95

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POSTS: 1830

Report this May. 09 2013, 10:29 am

Quote: leroybrock @ May. 09 2013, 9:48 am

>

>None of this argumentation about whether it's an alternative reality really matters. They stated in the movie that it's am alternate branching timeline. That's canon. That's the end of it, for it means that the people who are actually authorized to make decisions for our favorite series have spoken. 

>


Of course it doesn't matter. It's just fun to debate.


"The future is in the hands of those who explore... And from all the beauty they discover while crossing perpetually receding frontiers, they develop for nature and for humankind an infinite love." - Jacques Yves Cousteau

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 09 2013, 3:25 pm

Quote: leroybrock @ May. 09 2013, 9:48 am

>

>None of this argumentation about whether it's an alternative reality really matters. They stated in the movie that it's am alternate branching timeline. That's canon. That's the end of it, for it means that the people who are actually authorized to make decisions for our favorite series have spoken. 

>
see, thats the key word here....CANON


Canon is defined by what is seen or said from "WITHIN" the narrative/series.Not something a writer says in a magazine interview, not something they said on a tv spot.Not something they said at a convention, or director cut, or DVD extra, or the script or comic,novel...............


To be canon it must be stated within the body of the finished product, thats film or tv show episode...........and no where in the film did they actully say that the events seen take place in a alternate branching timeline.


 


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stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this May. 09 2013, 3:28 pm

Quote: Vger23 @ May. 09 2013, 10:07 am

>

>3. People still get confused between the concepts of "changing history" and "creating an alternate timeline." The 2009 movie depicts an alternate timeline which splintered off from the (ongoing) main timeline as a result of Nero's incursion. The universe that Star Trek and Star Trek Into Darkness take place in is a parallell universe co-existing with the original (and, as others have pointed out, potentially many other universes).

>
I dont get that concept confused.


I just point nout that the creating of a new co-exsiting universe from changing history is a new concept for Trek fiction.


 


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pwgood1701

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POSTS: 1

Report this May. 09 2013, 3:29 pm

Whatever! you people shouldn't even call yourself fans if you can't see the brilliance behind the whole thing!

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