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Should we give up on the Constitution?

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Created by: darmokattanagra

darmokattanagra

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Report this Jan. 01 2013, 3:04 pm

Quote: wissa @ Jan. 01 2013, 11:53 am

>

>I don't think it's the document itself that is the problem.  I think it's this recent development of people who look at it as some sort of religious document with the founding fathers as it's prophets is the problem.  If it is seen as a historical document with relevence to modern times, but limitations because of the period it was written in then it can be very usefull.

>


I don't think it's a recent development. Those people have always seen and will always see the Constitution as an epilogue to the Bible.


If Bam's response to your post wasn't proof enough there's always this:


"His anti-Biblical views - he believes in abortion and redefining marriage.  He tries to frame it as getting the government out of our personal choices, but the USA was built on Biblical principles.  I'm definitely not saying that this should be a theocracy, but that doesn't mean we "transform" America and throw out our founding principles."


I don't think he understands that this is a message board and everything he posts is still here for people to read days, months and even years after he's changed his position to "win" the current argument.

OtakuJo

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Report this Jan. 01 2013, 4:21 pm

Quote: DS9TREK @ Jan. 01 2013, 1:19 pm

>

>Technically New Zealand's constitution is made up the same as the UK's - Magna Carta 1215, the English Bill of Rights 1689 and the Act of Settlement 1701 all wrapped up nicely in the Common Law.

>


True the influence from Britain is still quite strong.


I think many people growing up in these parts view whatever passes for a Constitution as more of an instruction manual than anything else: How does parliament work, where are the electorates, how many seats should there be, how should elections work, etc etc. It's an imperfect system, but every bit as good as any other system out there. And our prime minister is a wanker -- but the very fact that I am able to say that without fear says a lot about how freedom of speech still works in this country.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Jan. 01 2013, 6:48 pm

Quote: wissa @ Jan. 01 2013, 1:50 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Jan. 01 2013, 12:38 pm

Quote: wissa @ Jan. 01 2013, 11:53 am

>

>

>

>I don't think it's the document itself that is the problem.  I think it's this recent development of people who look at it as some sort of religious document with the founding fathers as it's prophets is the problem.  If it is seen as a historical document with relevence to modern times, but limitations because of the period it was written in then it can be very usefull.

>
The idea of limited government preserving individual liberty is timeless!  No, it's not a religious document, but it is the supreme law of the land.  What's sad is that so many people here flat out ignore it or redefine stuff in an attempt to usurp it (treason.)  If they had any integrity, they'd obey it and change it via the amendment process.

I didn't say it was a religious document.  I said some people act like it is. 

 

all you need to do is read your post to see evidence of that

I never suggested that you saw it as a religious document, but I don't know anyone that does....  It's not the Bible....  Just because the majority of the people who wrote the document were Christians and placed Christian principles into the founding of the USA doesn't mean we're a theocracy or that the US Constitution is viewed as a "religious document" any more than whenever I write about liberty and limiting government should be considered as "religous."  And just because someone has respect for something doesn't mean it's worshipped.


And what "evidence" are you talking about?

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Jan. 01 2013, 6:51 pm

Quote: DS9TREK @ Jan. 01 2013, 2:10 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Jan. 01 2013, 12:38 pm

Quote: wissa @ Jan. 01 2013, 11:53 am

>

>

>

>I don't think it's the document itself that is the problem.  I think it's this recent development of people who look at it as some sort of religious document with the founding fathers as it's prophets is the problem.  If it is seen as a historical document with relevence to modern times, but limitations because of the period it was written in then it can be very usefull.

>
The idea of limited government preserving individual liberty is timeless!  No, it's not a religious document, but it is the supreme law of the land.  What's sad is that so many people here flat out ignore it or redefine stuff in an attempt to usurp it (treason.)  If they had any integrity, they'd obey it and change it via the amendment process.

What makes me sad is people forget where liberty and limited government come from and how they came to be. It simply evolved naturally and unwritten in England. Where Europeans came up with the idea there is no law and no rights unless the King (state) gives it to you, in England the law and our rights simply existed and not even the King (state) could ignore or overrule them.

Writing those rights down as they were in Magna Carta, the English Bill of Rights, Habeas Corpus and the US Constitution is with hindsight the greatest mistake we could have made. We've created the illusion that the state gave us (us being the English-speaking people) such rights as free speech and the right to arm ourselves. And worse still that the state can take those rights away. Which of course it cannot.

exactly right.... and I blame our gubmunt edewkayshun & indocktrunayshun cystduuhhmm.... People don't understand the difference between a right and a privilege.  Rights are God-given (natural).  Too bad John Locke isn't required reading.

darmokattanagra

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Report this Jan. 01 2013, 7:33 pm

And what "evidence" are you talking about?


Have you ever read one of your posts?

wissa

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Report this Jan. 01 2013, 9:47 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Jan. 01 2013, 6:48 pm

Quote: wissa @ Jan. 01 2013, 1:50 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Jan. 01 2013, 12:38 pm

Quote: wissa @ Jan. 01 2013, 11:53 am

>

>

>

>

>I don't think it's the document itself that is the problem.  I think it's this recent development of people who look at it as some sort of religious document with the founding fathers as it's prophets is the problem.  If it is seen as a historical document with relevence to modern times, but limitations because of the period it was written in then it can be very usefull.

>
The idea of limited government preserving individual liberty is timeless!  No, it's not a religious document, but it is the supreme law of the land.  What's sad is that so many people here flat out ignore it or redefine stuff in an attempt to usurp it (treason.)  If they had any integrity, they'd obey it and change it via the amendment process.

I didn't say it was a religious document.  I said some people act like it is. 

 

all you need to do is read your post to see evidence of that

I never suggested that you saw it as a religious document, but I don't know anyone that does....  It's not the Bible....  Just because the majority of the people who wrote the document were Christians and placed Christian principles into the founding of the USA doesn't mean we're a theocracy or that the US Constitution is viewed as a "religious document" any more than whenever I write about liberty and limiting government should be considered as "religous."  And just because someone has respect for something doesn't mean it's worshipped.

And what "evidence" are you talking about?


the language you use is virtually identical to that of someone discussing religion


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FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Jan. 01 2013, 9:52 pm

Quote: wissa @ Jan. 01 2013, 9:47 pm

>the language you use is virtually identical to that of someone discussing religion

>
Really?  I've seen people pray to Obama, but never to the Constitution.  But you can have your opinion.  We just completely disagree.  I guess it's easy for some people to mistake respect as religion.

wissa

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Report this Jan. 01 2013, 9:56 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Jan. 01 2013, 9:52 pm

Quote: wissa @ Jan. 01 2013, 9:47 pm

>

>the language you use is virtually identical to that of someone discussing religion

>
Really?  I've seen people pray to Obama, but never to the Constitution.  But you can have your opinion.  We just completely disagree.  I guess it's easy for some people to mistake respect as religion.


  way to sidestep it.  I don't mistake anything.  All I have is the language you use to judge by, and it is exactly the same language you use to describe religion.  If that isn't how you feel perhaps you need to look at how you express yourself.


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FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Jan. 01 2013, 9:59 pm

Quote: wissa @ Jan. 01 2013, 9:56 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Jan. 01 2013, 9:52 pm

Quote: wissa @ Jan. 01 2013, 9:47 pm

>

>

>the language you use is virtually identical to that of someone discussing religion

>
Really?  I've seen people pray to Obama, but never to the Constitution.  But you can have your opinion.  We just completely disagree.  I guess it's easy for some people to mistake respect as religion.

  way to sidestep it.  I don't mistake anything.  All I have is the language you use to judge by, and it is exactly the same language you use to describe religion.  If that isn't how you feel perhaps you need to look at how you express yourself.

No, I'm not sidestepping it.  Remember - you are coming from the complete opposite point of view.... and because we are, you just view the opposite as a religion.  I could just as easily say that your socialist views are your religion because of how you talk about it.  (And yes... while you haven't stated it (which is why I really don't think you view socialism as a religion) there are really people out there that do view government as god.)

wissa

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Report this Jan. 01 2013, 10:17 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Jan. 01 2013, 9:59 pm

Quote: wissa @ Jan. 01 2013, 9:56 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Jan. 01 2013, 9:52 pm

Quote: wissa @ Jan. 01 2013, 9:47 pm

>

>

>

>the language you use is virtually identical to that of someone discussing religion

>
Really?  I've seen people pray to Obama, but never to the Constitution.  But you can have your opinion.  We just completely disagree.  I guess it's easy for some people to mistake respect as religion.

  way to sidestep it.  I don't mistake anything.  All I have is the language you use to judge by, and it is exactly the same language you use to describe religion.  If that isn't how you feel perhaps you need to look at how you express yourself.

No, I'm not sidestepping it.  Remember - you are coming from the complete opposite point of view.... and because we are, you just view the opposite as a religion.  I could just as easily say that your socialist views are your religion because of how you talk about it.  (And yes... while you haven't stated it (which is why I really don't think you view socialism as a religion) there are really people out there that do view government as god.)


my socialist views?


 and you expect to have a real conversation after that?   I am clearly talking about the language you use.  I have no idea at all what you really believe.  You talk about the constitution the same way you would a religion. 


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FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Jan. 02 2013, 7:28 am

Quote: wissa @ Jan. 01 2013, 10:17 pm

>my socialist views?

> and you expect to have a real conversation after that?   I am clearly talking about the language you use.  I have no idea at all what you really believe.  You talk about the constitution the same way you would a religion. 

>
Yes... your socialist views are just as strong as my views on liberty - we are polar opposites.  You have argued for socialist programs as hard as I fight for freedom.


I'm sorry your so confused about understanding how I view the difference between the US Constitution and God.


Think about the basic components of a religion - deity, worshippers, prayer, etc.  You don't see these in my writings about the Constitution, but you would with my views on God.

wissa

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Report this Jan. 02 2013, 7:39 am

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Jan. 02 2013, 7:28 am

Quote: wissa @ Jan. 01 2013, 10:17 pm

>

>my socialist views?

> and you expect to have a real conversation after that?   I am clearly talking about the language you use.  I have no idea at all what you really believe.  You talk about the constitution the same way you would a religion. 

>
Yes... your socialist views are just as strong as my views on liberty - we are polar opposites.  You have argued for socialist programs as hard as I fight for freedom.

I'm sorry your so confused about understanding how I view the difference between the US Constitution and God.

Think about the basic components of a religion - deity, worshippers, prayer, etc.  You don't see these in my writings about the Constitution, but you would with my views on God.


I have no idea the difference between how you view the US constitution and god.  I only know you talk about them in the same way.  If you don't want to give the impression that they are the same to you try looking more closely at your language. 


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FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Jan. 02 2013, 8:22 am

Quote: wissa @ Jan. 02 2013, 7:39 am

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Jan. 02 2013, 7:28 am

Quote: wissa @ Jan. 01 2013, 10:17 pm

>

>

>my socialist views?

> and you expect to have a real conversation after that?   I am clearly talking about the language you use.  I have no idea at all what you really believe.  You talk about the constitution the same way you would a religion. 

>
Yes... your socialist views are just as strong as my views on liberty - we are polar opposites.  You have argued for socialist programs as hard as I fight for freedom.

I'm sorry your so confused about understanding how I view the difference between the US Constitution and God.

Think about the basic components of a religion - deity, worshippers, prayer, etc.  You don't see these in my writings about the Constitution, but you would with my views on God.

I have no idea the difference between how you view the US constitution and god.  I only know you talk about them in the same way.  If you don't want to give the impression that they are the same to you try looking more closely at your language. 

  That's funny.  So anyone's view that prefers liberty over slavery is considered "religious?"


Let's see....  religion says God is perfect but the US Constitution is not.  And you can't tell the difference?


--
Edit:  Maybe what you're doing is confusing the fact that the USA was built on the principles of the Christian religion with the Constitution becoming its own religion.  That would be like saying George Washington, who was a devout Christian, became a religion of his own.
--


I took an oath to support and defend the US Constitution - and I will do that for the rest of my life in order to protect the rights and liberties of the citizens.  If that languge is considered "relgious" by you.... well, I can't be held responsible for you misinterpreting it.  (I guess that means every single veteran will have that same stigma....  )  You have the opposite viewpoint, so that will obviously color your perception of anything I say.  Hopefully you can take that into account.

darmokattanagra

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Report this Jan. 02 2013, 9:28 am

The oath:


"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Sehlat123

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Report this Jan. 02 2013, 1:12 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>BTW non-USA citisens have as much of right to offer an opinion on the subject of this thread as anyone else.

>If you don't like them offering their opinions, then that's your tough luck.

>Just like "yanks" are very vocal about other countries and how they are run. This is an international board..

>


You know, I may think that other countries are run badly, but it's not my country, so I don't really care. As for you, I guess you can dish it out, but can't take it.


Actually, I think you're more jealous that our country is successful than anything else.


"Borg. Sounds Swedish."

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