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Klingons in alternate reality

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 27 2012, 12:15 pm

Quote: Transporter Accident @ Dec. 26 2012, 1:34 pm

>I recall the opening scene of the premiere episode of ENT, which showed a ridged Klingon in TMP/TNG attire on 22nd century Earth.  What was the deal with that, if the "ridging incident" didn't occur until the short time span between TOS and TMP?


there is no such thing as a "ridge incident".


TNG and DS9 both established that lingons had ridges way into the distence past.The non ridge klingons were created in the time of Enterprise asnd lasted till just after TOS.


Anyway, ENT destroyed what little credibility was left in the post-TNG era of Star Trek.  Their stories ret-conned many previously-established facts through lame fan ficiton.  For example, we saw Venice Beach in 1996, and it certainly didn't look like a world in which a global war was being waged.


Each series made its mistakes with so called "fictional" facts.


I dont recall Enterprise showing us Venice Beach or 1996 so I'm going to ask you to elaberate on that.


But Voyager also showed us 1996, and there was no sign of the eugernics wars.


 


 


 


 


 


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stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 27 2012, 12:18 pm

Quote: jumpthepuddle @ Dec. 26 2012, 9:52 pm

>The way I understand JJ destroyed the original timeline so how is that better?


thats because your miss cunderstanding JJ's point.


JJ created a NEW timeline, but claims the old on still continues even if unseen


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stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 27 2012, 12:29 pm

Quote: Transporter Accident @ Dec. 27 2012, 7:53 am

>Ret-con = retroactive continuity.  They changed the previously-established history to suit the needs of a particular episode (i.e. the writers of ENT didn't really respect the Trek-verse).


in reality, the opposite is more often true 


JJ-verse versus TOS: I think the 2009 reboot pays a lot of respect to the original series, and observant fans will notice all the subtle (and not so subtle) homage.  There are points that need to be selectively ignored, like the Kelvin having a crew of 800,


See, heres one of those times that people pick at what they think are major mistsakes when they really are not.


at no time in the film was it ever stated that all 800 lives saved on the Kelvin were crew members.


the location of planets


there are other examples, weithin the Trek unmiverser, of 2 different locations with the same names.


So Delta Vega near Vulcan posses no continuity issues


and travel time to them,


you got a point there.


stardates changing again,


like you said........again,The star date system has been changed and modified with each series.


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Fleet Admiral Braxton

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 288

Report this Dec. 27 2012, 4:01 pm

Quote: Transporter Accident @ Dec. 24 2012, 1:17 pm

>

>Klingons have always had ridges, even in the original series.  Roddenberry said it himself.  They also don't show "shame" -- what kind of Klingon cares about what they look like?  That explanation was the wosrt tragedy ever.

>
Actually, Only PURE-BRED Klingons Have only Had The Ridges; The First Ones,Seen In TOS, Were HUMAN FUSION Klingons; Thier DNA Was Combined With Human DNA To Create Klingons Who Would Better Interract With The "Human Empire"(Federation); However, As These Klingons Got Older, Their Klingon DNA Began To take over And become More Dominant; That's When They Got their 'Ridges'.


        This Sounds like the Most plausible Explanation To Me.   

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 27 2012, 4:27 pm

It might seem like the most plausible explanation to you............but its "Actually" NOT the one used in the series.

Transporter Accident

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POSTS: 9

Report this Dec. 27 2012, 8:23 pm

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Dec. 27 2012, 12:15 pm

>

>there is no such thing as a "ridge incident".

>TNG and DS9 both established that lingons had ridges way into the distence past.The non ridge klingons were created in the time of Enterprise asnd lasted till just after TOS.

>...

>Each series made its mistakes with so called "fictional" facts.

>I dont recall Enterprise showing us Venice Beach or 1996 so I'm going to ask you to elaberate on that.

>But Voyager also showed us 1996, and there was no sign of the eugernics wars.

>


The whole "augment" plotline for the ridges (or lack thereof) is contrived and awful fan fiction.  This idea directly links not only TWO major ST characters (Data and Khan), but also the entire Klingon race and the "ridge / no ridge" debate.  It's ludicrous and unbelievable.  Sure, "Khan Noonien Singh" *sounds* like "Dr. Noonian Soong".  But do we need some ridiculous storyline to actually relate the two?  And to suggest that a makeup/budget issue was actually the result of Klingons trying to replicate this "augment" technology?  All pure sci-fi authors who wrote for TOS are sobbing.


My bigger point was that *all* POST-TNG stories are rather bunk, be it DS9, VOY, or ENT.  I got bored of both DS9 and VOY after a few seasons, and lost interest in ENT after three episodes.  Even TNG stretched the boundaries of established Trek lore from the get-go, suggesting a nuclear holocaust actually did occur contrary to several of Spock's statements ("your last world war", referencing the Eugenics War in Space Seed, and also "they fought the war your Earth avoided" in the Omega Glory).  But that slip was absorbed into a modifed history and TNG proved very successful otherwise.

The other shows only served to further confound "established" history.  ENT really screwed with it because they introduced all kinds of new races, wars, and events (mirror universe, time travel, etc...) that were originally "firsts" in TOS.  If this Xindi War was so huge and far-reaching, why was it never mentioned in any other series?

The fact of the matter is that the writers had tons of raw material to work with -- origins of the Federation and Starfleet, loss of the Horizon and other ships mentioned in TOS, the Romulan War, etc... -- yet they chose to invent all whole new layer of crap stories that confuse and distract from Trek.  That's irresponsible.  It's like someone writing a drama set in the 1940s who doesn't even mention WWII (or worse, makes up some new crisis facing the world).


At least in the JJ-verse, we can believe the breaks in canon (post-Nero) because there's a valid excuse, in exactly the same way as we accepted the warship 1701-D fighting Klingons alongside the 1701-C.

Mitchz95

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1830

Report this Dec. 27 2012, 8:37 pm

The whole "augment" plotline for the ridges (or lack thereof) is contrived and awful fan fiction.  This idea directly links not only TWO major ST characters (Data and Khan), but also the entire Klingon race and the "ridge / no ridge" debate.  It's ludicrous and unbelievable.  Sure, "Khan Noonien Singh" *sounds* like "Dr. Noonian Soong".  But do we need some ridiculous storyline to actually relate the two?  And to suggest that a makeup/budget issue was actually the result of Klingons trying to replicate this "augment" technology?  All pure sci-fi authors who wrote for TOS are sobbing.


It's not fanfiction if it appeared on-screen. That's true whether you like it or not.


The Dr. Soong in Enterprise is Arik, not Noonien.


If this Xindi War was so huge and far-reaching, why was it never mentioned in any other series?


Probably the same reason the War of 1812 isn't commonly mentioned in today's society.

The fact of the matter is that the writers had tons of raw material to work with -- origins of the Federation and Starfleet, loss of the Horizon and other ships mentioned in TOS, the Romulan War, etc... -- yet they chose to invent all whole new layer of crap stories that confuse and distract from Trek.  That's irresponsible.  It's like someone writing a drama set in the 1940s who doesn't even mention WWII (or worse, makes up some new crisis facing the world).


They did have a lot of Romulan War stuff - "The Forge/Awakening/Kir'shara", "Babel One/United/The Aenar", etc. The Horizon appeared in "Horizon"; we even saw the Chicago Mobs book on board. And the origins of the Federation was a theme throughout the whole series, especially in season 4.


"The future is in the hands of those who explore... And from all the beauty they discover while crossing perpetually receding frontiers, they develop for nature and for humankind an infinite love." - Jacques Yves Cousteau

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 28 2012, 2:00 am

Quote: Transporter Accident @ Dec. 27 2012, 8:23 pm

>The whole "augment" plotline for the ridges (or lack thereof) is contrived and awful fan fiction.  This idea directly links not only TWO major ST characters (Data and Khan), but also the entire Klingon race and the "ridge / no ridge" debate.  It's ludicrous and unbelievable.  Sure, "Khan Noonien Singh" *sounds* like "Dr. Noonian Soong".  But do we need some ridiculous storyline to actually relate the two?  And to suggest that a makeup/budget issue was actually the result of Klingons trying to replicate this "augment" technology?  All pure sci-fi authors who wrote for TOS are sobbing.

>My bigger point was that *all* POST-TNG stories are rather bunk, be it DS9, VOY, or ENT.  I got bored of both DS9 and VOY after a few seasons, and lost interest in ENT after three episodes.  Even TNG stretched the boundaries of established Trek lore from the get-go, suggesting a nuclear holocaust actually did occur contrary to several of Spock's statements ("your last world war", referencing the Eugenics War in Space Seed, and also "they fought the war your Earth avoided" in the Omega Glory).  But that slip was absorbed into a modifed history and TNG proved very successful otherwise.

The other shows only served to further confound "established" history.  ENT really screwed with it because they introduced all kinds of new races, wars, and events (mirror universe, time travel, etc...) that were originally "firsts" in TOS.  If this Xindi War was so huge and far-reaching, why was it never mentioned in any other series?

The fact of the matter is that the writers had tons of raw material to work with -- origins of the Federation and Starfleet, loss of the Horizon and other ships mentioned in TOS, the Romulan War, etc... -- yet they chose to invent all whole new layer of crap stories that confuse and distract from Trek.  That's irresponsible.  It's like someone writing a drama set in the 1940s who doesn't even mention WWII (or worse, makes up some new crisis facing the world).

>At least in the JJ-verse, we can believe the breaks in canon (post-Nero) because there's a valid excuse, in exactly the same way as we accepted the warship 1701-D fighting Klingons alongside the 1701-C.

>
your inability bto like/acept the canon, in series explanation for the "ridges" doesnt make the offical explanaqtion "fan fiction".


The link between Dada,his "family" and the ridges isint very prominate.


Sorry you found no joy in some of the spin offs, I personally rank DS9 as the best written/produced of the series.


And I agree the creators of Enterprise dropped the ball on some things that we should have seen, but that doesnt equate to a break in history/continuity due to the missing years.


All those events could fit in that hole in time.


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Broadstorm

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POSTS: 828

Report this Dec. 28 2012, 5:20 am

There's really no reason to blame Enterprise for the screwing with canon particuarly on this issue.  For any other issue, the other series already screwed continuity on most issues anyway so Enterprise was just the most recent, not the most responsible.  As for the ridges, Enterprise fixed a problem that was set up by DS9.  When the movies started up, and the sequel series came along, the Klingons looked different than they did in TOS, but that could simply have been written off as just what it was, makeup effects & budgeting just didn't allow for the more advanced look that they could do later on.  Much the same applies to other races, although on different scales.  The Tellarites looked like crappy Halloween masks in TOS, but look more organic in Enterprise.  The Andorian antennae look different also.  I wouldn't consider those to be major canon violations, just better representations of what they should look like, just like the ships & weapons fire look better now than they did back in the 1960s.  It could simply have been ignored as the Klingons were supposed to look like that all along, but makeup effects sucked back then, and now they are good.  If DS9 hadn't done that tribbles episode that said, yeah they actually did look different back then, but we really don't want to go into why, then there wouldn't have been an issue.  Enterprise cleaned up DS9's mess.

dreem24

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 70

Report this Dec. 28 2012, 6:15 am

It's not about their appearance only it's about how they screwed up their "culture"


The TOS ones were a fascist country so to speak then those "honor" idiots came and bam and bam their culture change through their empire in a second...

And let's not even discuss their "religion" according to wich the klingons killed their gods, a person must ask himself if they do not have religion(wich is a good thing fanatics are degradation of society) or they believe  killing their gods why are they so bound to worship some person hundreds of years after his dead they even say "year of khalees"


 

Mitchz95

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1830

Report this Dec. 28 2012, 8:41 am

It's not about their appearance only it's about how they screwed up their "culture"


The TOS ones were a fascist country so to speak then those "honor" idiots came and bam and bam their culture change through their empire in a second...


Personally, I'm glad they were developed beyond the "space Nazis" of TOS. Fleshing out their culture is good, and gave them some redeeming qualities that worked out well in future episodes and series as well.

And let's not even discuss their "religion" according to wich the klingons killed their gods, a person must ask himself if they do not have religion(wich is a good thing fanatics are degradation of society) or they believe  killing their gods why are they so bound to worship some person hundreds of years after his dead they even say "year of khalees"


Kahless wasn't a god. He was a legendary Klingon warrior who lived millenia ago.


"The future is in the hands of those who explore... And from all the beauty they discover while crossing perpetually receding frontiers, they develop for nature and for humankind an infinite love." - Jacques Yves Cousteau

dreem24

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 70

Report this Dec. 28 2012, 9:33 am

Personally, I'm glad they were developed beyond the "space Nazis" of TOS. Fleshing out their culture is good, and gave them some redeeming qualities that worked out well in future episodes and series as well.


But they didn't develop... It's just naive to think that they are all about expanding thats the political party view the people have their lives just like you and me... And then bam all of suden they are all warrior "trained" with knives by the age of 10 and are all warriors 




Kahless wasn't a god. He was a legendary Klingon warrior who lived millenia ago.


My point exactly if they are too good to worship a god why do they fallow that legendary fighter of theirs?

jumpthepuddle

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POSTS: 43

Report this Dec. 28 2012, 10:32 am

I liked Trek 2009 it just wasn't that great to me.  I loved all of the Trek shows I am very sorry for the ones that do not like them all.  I also feel sorry for them.


Most Trek fans including myself nit pick the shows and movies to death it makes it to me sometime unenjoyable.  So one of my new years resolutions is not to nit pick it to death anymore.


It is just a a tv show and movie franchise.  It is not true but all Trek gives us good stories (moral stories etc..) and that is what really matters for Star Trek.


Also I have read in the past TNG DS9 and Voyager and I have seen mistakes in them in cannon in relation to TOS and TOS movies.  I think Gene Roddenberry said something to effect what you see in new shows can replace what has been seen in past Trek. And a writer or a fan can think of if they want how to solve contridications. Star Trek evolves.


Star Trek franchise is about hope, friendship, adventure plus other good things. 


Let stopped nit picking the whole Star Trek franchise to death.


 

Broadstorm

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POSTS: 828

Report this Dec. 28 2012, 4:27 pm

Quote: Mitchz95 @ Dec. 28 2012, 8:41 am

>

>It's not about their appearance only it's about how they screwed up their "culture"

>The TOS ones were a fascist country so to speak then those "honor" idiots came and bam and bam their culture change through their empire in a second...

>Personally, I'm glad they were developed beyond the "space Nazis" of TOS. Fleshing out their culture is good, and gave them some redeeming qualities that worked out well in future episodes and series as well.


That could be interpreted as a matter of what they focused on rather than a significant contradiction.  In TOS, the emphasis was on how they conquer less advanced races.  In the other series, they put more emphasis on showing them as rabid thugs.  You were definitely right to put the word "honor" in quotes when discussing Klingons though as they have none. 


I also question how much they were really "developed" in the later series.  Everything the writers threw in to develop them just pointed back to their obsession with violence.  Compare that to the Romluans, who were established in just 1 episode as having a different side to their culture, that not all of them were obsessed with slaughter.

jumpthepuddle

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 43

Report this Dec. 28 2012, 5:27 pm





Quote: jumpthepuddle @ Dec. 26 2012, 9:52 pm






>The way I understand JJ destroyed the original timeline so how is that better?






thats because your miss cunderstanding JJ's point.




JJ created a NEW timeline, but claims the old on still continues even if unseen


 


I understand I was pointed out actually a different fans view of what happenned.  Sometimes I think what I said then I think it is a another universe Spock prime went back in time to.  Then there is no need to correct the timeline like Kirk did, the Timeship Relativity fixing time in Voyager and Daniels group in Enterprise. 


 


And Mr or Ms Transportar Accident did you ever watch Enterprise aboutt the Augments and Klingon ridge story arcs?  Also some stated that Venice beach in 1996 was not in Enterprise.


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