ATTENTION: The Boards will be closed permanently on May 28th, 2014. Posting will be disabled on April 28th, 2014. More Info

The Federation and Starfleet during the Dominion War

jrowebb

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 22

Report this Jan. 22 2013, 2:28 pm

The Nemesis movie was supposed to take place right after the War via DS9, but the ST:TNG comic arc "Telepathy War" (MARVEL) at the time had a direct tie to the Dominion taking of Beta Zed in the DS9 episode (I don't remember the name), and it was also covered in the TNG book "The Battle of Betazed." I've said this a few times, if Paramount wanted to make sht load of money they should have made direct-to-dvd movies about the war and few other involving Voyager and DS9.

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Jan. 22 2013, 3:57 pm

Quote: stunned4life @ Jan. 22 2013, 1:47 pm

>One of the TNG films was right in the middle of the war and there was no mention of it. the movie would have made for a good way to show what the "E" was doing at the time.


 


sorry, but you are not completly correct about that.


You are right, 1 of the TNG films [ Insurrection  ] took place in the middle of the war.


But you are wrong in that the film does mention the war a few times.


 


 


Photobucket

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Jan. 22 2013, 4:04 pm

Quote: jrowebb @ Jan. 22 2013, 2:28 pm

>The Nemesis movie was supposed to take place right after the War via DS9


actully about 4 years after the war.


Photobucket

Hotobu

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6

Report this Jan. 27 2013, 10:21 pm

1) Manpower/ship shortage: Why is this so hard to believe? Just because a world comes into the Federation that doesn't mean that it increases its military capabilities. If anything it may weaken it. Take the U.S. and Puerto Rico as an example. PR isn't a state, yet, but if it became one would the US military suddenly become stronger? Outside of a draft not really. Sure there would be some people who sign up for the armed forces, but it's not like new world = more military power. To extend the example further what if (for whatever reason) New Zealand suddenly became part of the US? Again the US military isn't going to become much stronger, but now there's the problem of defending a territory that's far away from the mainland.


 


The problem is that the Federation seems to be too large to be able to defend strategically. Because worlds ask to become a part of it, and aren't conquered it stands to reason that worlds are spread out across the quadrant therefore making the defense of the Federation a logistical problem.


 


Also as was said earlier just because you're a part of the Federation doesn't mean you have to join its military. Due to the "peacful" nature of the Federation there are probably a load of pacifict planets that don't contribute at all to the military might of the Federation, but just suck up military resources.


 


As far as the ship shortage goes it wasn't until the beginning of the Dominion conflict that the first Star Fleet Warship (The Defiant) was built, and it had a load of problems with its design. The Federation was not in the habit of building warships therefore thier shipyards were not set up to do so. The only thing the Dominion builds is warships, and all evidence points to them having hundreds of years of experience doing so. I have to imagine that the ratio of ships that the Dominion can build compared to Star Fleet is pretty big seeing as eveytime star fleet goes to build a ship they're essentially building ocean liners and yachts compared to the Dominion who pumps out speed boats.


 


The Dominion gets all of its manpower via clones. Folks aren't exactly estatic about signing up to fight in the middle of a war, and those who do still need training. When it comes to the start of a war the force that you start with is going to be the lion's share of what you have to work with. The longer the conflict goes the stronger the Dominion gets because Star Fleet is losing people with experience and replacing them with new recruits. The Jem'Haddar are ready to fight within a few weeks with a military experience built into their genes.


 


2) The Breen just waltzing in to Earth for an attack. By the time this happened Star Fleet had been hit pretty hard, and a large part of their armada was invested in being on the front lines. Furthermore I don't think they saw the Breen coming. Also "Earth" is only a big deal because to you it's your home. Earth is more symbolic than it is strategic. In the Star Trek universe it's important, but it's not as big as you're making it out to be. Again the Federation's strength and weakness is that it's very decentralized. Earth is where Star Fleet Academy is, but it's not as if it's the key to the Federation. When the final charge towards Cardassia prime happened the rest of the Cardassian holdings had been conquered and Cardassia was surrounded. That's a lot different than a sneak attack.


 


3) Is it me or did it seem like Earth was bearing the brunt of the fighting? I don't know how to respond to this. It' a symbolic target. Hit it if you can.


 


4) I'm kind of surprised that the Federation in some way, shape or form, didn't launch some kind of expedition into the Gamma quadrant and put some heat on a few Dominion worlds... are you out of your mind?... seriously. That's an insane awful idea. The Dominion was kicking ass in the Alpha Quadrant wtih a small fraction of its might. You would further deplete minimal resources to go after the stronger part of an enemy that you can barely beat now, that isn't a threat where it's currently at? An enemy that you don't even know enough about to even hope to be able to strike any meaningful targets? That doesn't make a lick of sense.


 


5) Where was the Enterprise during all this? It was in movies and its show had gone off the air. The real world has to come into play sometime. 


 


6) The Dominion war would have been a really really good time to put that Federation phase cloak into use. Chances are it was destroyed, and the only people who knew anything about it were dead or in jail. It's not as though there were a bunch of them. There was just the single prototype. Even if you want to make the argument "well they could have given the people in jail pardons" it was still years since the thing had been built, and the plans may have been destroyed or unavailable. It's not like another one would have been ready to go right away.


 


7) Where was the President of the Federation during the signing of the peace treaty? You would think that given the importance of such an event, he, being the leader of the Federation would be there.


 


When you've got an enemy on its knees ready for surrender you don't wait for someone who's nothing more than a symbol to end the conflict. For all we know he was weeks away. All of that is time that more people are dying so he can come put his signature on a document.




 


 

CloakedTerror

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 38

Report this Jan. 28 2013, 8:09 pm

 


1) Manpower/ship shortage: Why is this so hard to believe? Just because a world comes into the Federation that doesn't mean that it increases its military capabilities. If anything it may weaken it. Take the U.S. and Puerto Rico as an example. PR isn't a state, yet, but if it became one would the US military suddenly become stronger? Outside of a draft not really. Sure there would be some people who sign up for the armed forces, but it's not like new world = more military power. To extend the example further what if (for whatever reason) New Zealand suddenly became part of the US? Again the US military isn't going to become much stronger, but now there's the problem of defending a territory that's far away from the mainland.


 


*It is so hard to believe because it does not make sense. But first to your example: I've been in the military for ten years and I know for a fact that we have a MEPS in San Juan, Puerto Rico and we recruit a lot of people from there. It is the same as recruiting people in any of the 50 states, or our other territories, not to mention foreigners who sign up so they can eventually become citizens. So yes, the military is stronger because it has a larger population pool to draw from. If we were to limit ourselves to signing people up from, say, only the 13 original states, we would not be as strong. Consider this, and then multiply it on a planetary scale for the Federation. Every planet, just like every independent nation on earth, would have some sort of military, or security force, something with which to defend itself just in case. So yes, the worlds in the Federation, great or small, would have something to contribute militarily. It is to foolish to believe that they would not keep any kind of defense force in place in case of a threat from outsiders, regardless of how peaceful the Federation is.


 


The problem is that the Federation seems to be too large to be able to defend strategically. Because worlds ask to become a part of it, and aren't conquered it stands to reason that worlds are spread out across the quadrant therefore making the defense of the Federation a logistical problem.


 


*It is a large amount of space to defend, no doubt. But given that amount of space, it stands to reason that Starfleet would keep a large amount of standing personnel to defend it. When you consider the manpower needed for all ships, garrisons, outposts, space stations, etc. in the Federation, even in peacetime, it would need to be a sizable force. Starfleet is to intelligent to not understand this.


 


Also as was said earlier just because you're a part of the Federation doesn't mean you have to join its military. Due to the "peacful" nature of the Federation there are probably a load of pacifict planets that don't contribute at all to the military might of the Federation, but just suck up military resources.


 


*The Federation is peaceful yes, and it's citizens do not have to join the military. But you don't need a draft or to make military service mandatory in order to maintain a sizable force. In America we have a 100% volunteer military, and people sign up left and right. You make this happen by offering benefits and other things to get people to join. In the Federation, a career in Starfleet would be most appealing to many citizens. Think about it, you get to explore the galaxy, see all kinds of new worlds and meet new species, and the skills you would acquire would undoubtebly help you in civilian life. Even if the numbers of people joining were far less then 1% of the population of a planet in the Federation, the sheer size of the Federation population would make it a sizable force. I find it hard to believe that there are planets that are simply "sucking up resources" and contributing nothing. The Federation is modeled after the United Nations, where it's "an attack on one is the same as an attack on all" kind of mentality. America would come to the defense of England or France if they were attacked. It stands to reason it would work the same way in the Federation, but on a planetary scale.


 


As far as the ship shortage goes it wasn't until the beginning of the Dominion conflict that the first Star Fleet Warship (The Defiant) was built, and it had a load of problems with its design. The Federation was not in the habit of building warships therefore thier shipyards were not set up to do so. The only thing the Dominion builds is warships, and all evidence points to them having hundreds of years of experience doing so. I have to imagine that the ratio of ships that the Dominion can build compared to Star Fleet is pretty big seeing as eveytime star fleet goes to build a ship they're essentially building ocean liners and yachts compared to the Dominion who pumps out speed boats.


 


*The Defiant was not built at the beginning of the Dominion war. It was originally built to fight the Borg, as Sisko states at the beginning of Season 3. The Federation can buid warships. They had the Borg threat, tensions with the Romulans, a war with the Cardassians, among other things prior to the Dominion threat. All of these things would have contributed to a need to build better warships. Not only Defiant class, but the Sovereign class as well. Galaxy class and Nebula class also have formidable armaments. So they were versed in how to build them. Now granted, they needed to upgrade shields and defense systems after encounters with the Dominion and Breen ships, but the scientists and engineers of the Federation more then proved to be up to the task. You're right that the Dominion can crank them out faster, but for the Federation to be outmatched at every turn? I still don't buy it.


 


The Dominion gets all of its manpower via clones. Folks aren't exactly estatic about signing up to fight in the middle of a war, and those who do still need training. When it comes to the start of a war the force that you start with is going to be the lion's share of what you have to work with. The longer the conflict goes the stronger the Dominion gets because Star Fleet is losing people with experience and replacing them with new recruits. The Jem'Haddar are ready to fight within a few weeks with a military experience built into their genes.


 


*Folks are estatic to sign up to fight when their very existance and sovereignty are threatened. The Federation citizens by this point in the 24th century would have been brought up for generations learning about the ideals and principles upon which the Federation was founded. Now here come the Dominion, the greatest threat to the alpha quadrant ever. An enemy that cannot be reasoned with, and is dead set on your destruction and your conquest, and who wants to destroy everything you stand for. Everyone would have learned about this threat, and the seriousness of the situation. You can't tell me for one minute that this would not be a rallying cry for Starfleet. I'm sure at the beginning, some people would try to sit it out, but once the war started hitting home for them, and they realized it was effecting everyone in the quadrant, Starfleet would not have a manpower problem. You are correct, people need to be trained, but the sheer number of people coming in would be like a steady stream. Pretty soon they would have a great many experienced people serving, in addition to those who were already serving prior to the war.


 


2) The Breen just waltzing in to Earth for an attack. By the time this happened Star Fleet had been hit pretty hard, and a large part of their armada was invested in being on the front lines. Furthermore I don't think they saw the Breen coming. Also "Earth" is only a big deal because to you it's your home. Earth is more symbolic than it is strategic. In the Star Trek universe it's important, but it's not as big as you're making it out to be. Again the Federation's strength and weakness is that it's very decentralized. Earth is where Star Fleet Academy is, but it's not as if it's the key to the Federation. When the final charge towards Cardassia prime happened the rest of the Cardassian holdings had been conquered and Cardassia was surrounded. That's a lot different than a sneak attack.


 


*Earth is a big deal for more then the fact that it's my home. It's the headquarters of Starfleet and the Federation. If it wasn't a big deal, it wouldn't be such a target. The Borg wanted to assimilate it numerous times, Shinzon wants to destroy it in Nemesis, and in DS9, Weyoun speaks of it's importance while talking with Gul Dukat: "If there is to be a resistance to us, it will be there." The Founders had even sent some of their people there to wreck havoc in in effort to "destroy paradise." Starfleet may have been heavily engaged at the front lines, but you don't leave the castle unguarded while you're out fighting.


 


3) Is it me or did it seem like Earth was bearing the brunt of the fighting? I don't know how to respond to this. It' a symbolic target. Hit it if you can.


 


*That's not what I meant. I meant in terms of it seeming like humans were doing most of the fighting.


 


4) I'm kind of surprised that the Federation in some way, shape or form, didn't launch some kind of expedition into the Gamma quadrant and put some heat on a few Dominion worlds... are you out of your mind?... seriously. That's an insane awful idea. The Dominion was kicking ass in the Alpha Quadrant wtih a small fraction of its might. You would further deplete minimal resources to go after the stronger part of an enemy that you can barely beat now, that isn't a threat where it's currently at? An enemy that you don't even know enough about to even hope to be able to strike any meaningful targets? That doesn't make a lick of sense.


 


*No, I'm not out of my mind. Ever hear of the Doolittle Raid on Japan shortly after Pearl Harbor? It's the kind of thing I was proposing. It wasn't a massive expedition meant on the total defeat of an enemy. It was something to send a message. In this way, this kind of small victory can be as powerful as the largest victory on the battlefield (or in space). This kind of smaller expedition would have sent a message to the Dominion that "yes you can attack us in our own territory but we can do the same to you." Even if it wasn't an attack on Dominion controlled worlds, it could have been against supply lines, or listening posts in the Gamma Quadrant, or something that would have made the Dominion take a little step back for a minute. Fortune favors the bold, and risks like these sometimes need to be made in war.


 


5) Where was the Enterprise during all this? It was in movies and its show had gone off the air. The real world has to come into play sometime. 


 


*No, it does not. They could have had the Enterprise make a brief cameo in an episode while they were filiming one of those movies. I think it would have been cool. And besides, it's all supposed to be taking place at the same time. We all know the show was off the air, but that has nothing to do with it. TNG characters make cameos in Voyager, so why not on DS9 when the biggest war in the history of the quadrant is taking place? "The real world" has nothing to do with it.


 


6) The Dominion war would have been a really really good time to put that Federation phase cloak into use. Chances are it was destroyed, and the only people who knew anything about it were dead or in jail. It's not as though there were a bunch of them. There was just the single prototype. Even if you want to make the argument "well they could have given the people in jail pardons" it was still years since the thing had been built, and the plans may have been destroyed or unavailable. It's not like another one would have been ready to go right away.


 


*But it probably would have been a good idea. I highly doubt Section 31 would have let the phase cloak be destroyed, or suddenly not keep tabs on anyone who knew about it. It's the kind of thing 31 stands for, and they probably would have kept it around since they were already preparing for the idea that there would be a war with the Romulans after the Dominion War was over.


 


7) Where was the President of the Federation during the signing of the peace treaty? You would think that given the importance of such an event, he, being the leader of the Federation would be there.


When you've got an enemy on its knees ready for surrender you don't wait for someone who's nothing more than a symbol to end the conflict. For all we know he was weeks away. All of that is time that more people are dying so he can come put his signature on a document.


 


*It's merely something I was wondering about since at the surrender, we see the female changeling (head of the Dominion), Chancellor Martok (head of the Klingon Empire), Romulans who we can assume are very high ranking since they always have Senators around and the Senate runs Romulus. So I figured, why not the President of the Federation?  People would not have still been dying, because the female changeling had already agreed to surrender. Waiting for a few for the President to get there would not have been that big a deal, IMO. But I do get that him not being there was like the WW2 Japanese surrender to MacArthur and Nimitz, and Admiral Ross and his speech, etc. all being inspired by that. So, I do appreciate that.




 


 

Forum Permissions

You cannot post new topics in this forum

You cannot reply to topics in this forum

You cannot delete posts in this forum