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JJ on The Sequel

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this Feb. 28 2013, 5:03 pm

Quote: guillermo.mejía @ Feb. 28 2013, 11:49 am

>I'm still not sure where you got that he was a Lieutenant......He was made First Officer.....but that role carries no automatic promotion.


it was seen on screan, when Kirk and Sulu were in free fall and Paval was trying to beam them up


Kirk,Sulu and Uhura all held the same rank


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He'sDeadJim6400

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Report this Feb. 28 2013, 5:15 pm

[quote]


 


 


Quote:

Spock in Abrams movie was very weak, never should a disipline Vulcan fall into the arms of a HUMAN female in times of crisis.
.


I mean this question with sincerity but why? It is clear that they have a relationship, just like Sarek and Amanda did in “Journey to Babel” where Sarek clearly leaned  on his wife. Also, Sarek married Perrin, another human, later in his life and suffered a disease. Do you think that Sarek, one of the most successful Vulcans of his time, would not lean upon his human wife for support during difficult times?


Quote:

THe writting in the movie is very bad, not only is the time travel concept  is silly.
.


I’ll grant the writing needed some work but I will also grant real world issues getting in the way. Time travel, in general, is a silly concept, but Trek has always taken it with a bit of salt, either through the slingshot maneuver, through an ancient portal, alien influences and a host of other methods. Using a black hole is no more and no less sillier than slingshoting around the sun.


.

Quote:

., a villian WASTED 25 years looking for Spock, so yeah there has been evil guys in Star Trek, but they had a purpose, .
.


This is just my interpretation of the film, as it stood, but the Kelvin colliding with the Narada struck me as something that the Romulans couldn’t just walk away from with a shrug. I guess it didn’t bother me but I always took it that he was fixing his ship and calculating were Spock would emerged in time and space. Ayel, his right hand man, tells him they have arrived at the coordinates he calculated, so I don’t think he was just sitting around. But, this is just my interpretation.


I liked Nero as a villain and his purpose his vengeance. But, he isn’t cold and calculating like Khan or Chang. He is a mad man and that is what makes him fascinating.


.

Quote:

. and I hate to get into how wrong Uhura was portrayed in the movie, Uhura was always classy, not a bossy go getter.. .
.


She was classy when we saw her as and older and matured officer. I am certain that she had her growing pains as well, so being overconfident may simply be something to grow past. Of course, I don’t see it as wrong so much as different.


.

Quote:

.You mention Kirk, yeah he did evolve within the movie, though in a silly way, no matter how smart you are, no one can jump from cadet to captain of the flagship in that short time, and don't let me get started on Pike.. .
.


Actually, I can image that you can but that is a long, long discussion involving cited references, prior science fiction works, Star Trek’s original inspiration and military protocol.


Quote:

.But if you like the movie,  good for you.   .
.


I do like the movie and thank you. I also appreciate you listing your grievances and look forward to your response.


[/quote]


 


There's nothing wrong in a Spock/Uhura relationship (if possible) but it wasn't done right, it was foolish, because did Uhura demand to go on the Enterprise because she was Spocks girl or because of her qualifications ? and would a follower of Vulcan beliefs and Starfleet protocol BOW bown to a cadet's demands ? that Spock wanted to throw Kirk off the ship after he help them with the Klingon message.. Clearly Abrams has no concept of Spock.


And to answer your other question  about ranks..NO.. No lieutenant or cadet can move up to captain in one day unless he's a Harry Potter type wizard..In the Original Series you had seasoned professionals, grown men like McCoy and Scotty, not some foolish cadets running around around looking for fun, I like realism in science fiction, Star Trek was known for that until JJ Abrams destroyed it, but for those who like it..fine.      


Greatness comes to those who really want to do anything to get it.

Mitchz95

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Report this Feb. 28 2013, 5:30 pm

did Uhura demand to go on the Enterprise because she was Spocks girl or because of her qualifications ?


The latter.


and would a follower of Vulcan beliefs and Starfleet protocol BOW bown to a cadet's demands ?


If said cadet was correct, certainly.


"The future is in the hands of those who explore... And from all the beauty they discover while crossing perpetually receding frontiers, they develop for nature and for humankind an infinite love." - Jacques Yves Cousteau

leroybrock

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Report this Feb. 28 2013, 5:31 pm

The Uhura-Spock relationship was fine. It's just your view which is incorrect. Uhura's qualifications placed her on the Enterprise and Spock tried to assign her to a different ship because he was worried that people would think he was playing favorites based on their relationship. She called him on it and he saw that he was being unfair to her to placate his own anxiety and corrected his decision.

Spock threw Kirk off the ship after watching his homeworld, his mother, and almost all Vulcans die in a matter of minutes. I wonder what could have been bothering him?

And yes, he did become Captain. It's right there in the movie and there's nothing a tiny minority can do about. The fleet was in ruins, a major planet full of people was destroyed, the ship's captain was the prisoner of a genocidal lunatic. In the chaos only Kirk had a clear sense of purpose, confidence and direction. From chaos he rose.

I Am Ultra Narcissus.

He'sDeadJim6400

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POSTS: 113

Report this Feb. 28 2013, 5:38 pm

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Feb. 27 2013, 9:13 pm

Quote: He'sDeadJim6400 @ Feb. 27 2013, 4:59 pm

>

>Spock in Abrams movie was very weak, never should a disipline Vulcan fall into the arms of a HUMAN female in times of crisis..THe writting in the movie is very bad, not only is the time travel concept  is silly, a villian WASTED 25 years looking for Spock, so yeah there has been evil guys in Star Trek, but they had a purpose, and I hate to get into how wrong Uhura was portrayed in the movie, Uhura was always classy, not a bossy go getter..You mention Kirk, yeah he did evolve within the movie, though in a silly way, no matter how smart you are, no one can jump from cadet to captain of the flagship in that short time, and don't let me get started on Pike..But if you like the movie,  good for you.  

The issue here is your comprehension skills and your over all knowlidge of Trek and its characters.

To start, Spock is a vulcan /human hibrid, so its no shock that his "disipline" wavers from time to time.As a matter of fact we saw pleanty of that in the originasl series.

Nero, the villian , didnt wait 25 years looking for Spock,, he was locked in a klingon prision all that time.

Original Uhura couldnt even speak Klingon after serving as commnuication officer for over 30 years..........how incompetent is that?At least Nu Uhura was portrayed as if she was good at her job.

And you really need to pay attention to what seen and said in the filmn, Kirk held the rank of Lieutenant, so Kirk went from Lieutenant to captain.

And please, go ahead and start on Pike, I for one would love to see how you fail in your observations.

 


Ah so you want a debate ? I'm pretty sure the Uhura earned her place on the Original Series Enterprise through her skills, not because she was in love with the first officer..


Spock was Vulcan / human split into two, that's what made him a great character, but he followed the Vulcan was and never did he let a woman persuade him to do something he didn't want to. there is nothing unique about JJ Abrams Spock, we all seen it done better by Nimoy in TOS and even Tuvok on Voyager..If there is something please tell me ?


As I said earlier, I like the realism in Star Trek, Real soldiers following real protocol..In TOS Kirk served one or two ships before he got the Enterprise, he was trained an experienced, no serious Military will give command of a green "Lieutenant" who got lucky and stop a bad guy, that's foolish, the most he would get is be promoted to in charge of security,no matter how serious the situation, you must be qualified to command, give orders and follow orders, he wasn't suppose to be on the Enterprise, but Pike being a weak leader let him stay AND foolishly promoted him to XO . Only in a bugs bunny cartoon would a kid Start out with nothing then is a captain of the  federation flagship, but coming from JJ Abrams that's not surprising. 


Greatness comes to those who really want to do anything to get it.

He'sDeadJim6400

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POSTS: 113

Report this Feb. 28 2013, 5:43 pm

Quote:

The Uhura-Spock relationship was fine. It's just your view which is incorrect. Uhura's qualifications placed her on the Enterprise and Spock tried to assign her to a different ship because he was worried that people would think he was playing favorites based on their relationship. She called him on it and he saw that he was being unfair to her to placate his own anxiety and corrected his decision. Spock threw Kirk off the ship after watching his homeworld, his mother, and almost all Vulcans die in a matter of minutes. I wonder what could have been bothering him? And yes, he did become Captain. It's right there in the movie and there's nothing a tiny minority can do about. The fleet was in ruins, a major planet full of people was destroyed, the ship's captain was the prisoner of a genocidal lunatic. In the chaos only Kirk had a clear sense of purpose, confidence and direction. From chaos he rose.


Well if StarFleet just takes anyone who calls a few lucky shots but has no experience and makes them captain then it's no wonder they're in ruins. 


Greatness comes to those who really want to do anything to get it.

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this Feb. 28 2013, 5:59 pm

Quote: He'sDeadJim6400 @ Feb. 28 2013, 5:15 pm

>did Uhura demand to go on the Enterprise because she was Spocks girl or because of her qualifications ?


I thought it was quite clear, her demands were based on her skills at the job


and would a follower of Vulcan beliefs and Starfleet protocol BOW bown to a cadet's demands ?


if he realised he was wrong then yes.And he was wrong in denying her the job because of their relationshipthat


Spock wanted to throw Kirk off the ship after he help them with the Klingon message.. Clearly Abrams has no concept of Spock.


your memory of the film is a bit mixed up.


Spock wanted Kirk off the ship after Vulcan was destroyed not after he helped with the Klingon messege.


and there were as number of times that Spock reacted emotionally , the lose of his mother and home would be one of those times.


So it seems JJ understood Spoick bettger thern you think


And to answer your other question  about ranks..NO.. No lieutenant or cadet can move up to captain in one day unless he's a Harry Potter type wizard.


or Richard Castillo, granted all his upper officers were killed


 


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leroybrock

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Report this Feb. 28 2013, 6:00 pm

"Ah so you want a debate ? I'm pretty sure the Uhura earned her place on the Original Series Enterprise through her skills, not because she was in love with the first officer..

Spock was Vulcan / human split into two, that's what made him a great character, but he followed the Vulcan was and never did he let a woman persuade him to do something he didn't want to. there is nothing unique about JJ Abrams Spock, we all seen it done better by Nimoy in TOS and even Tuvok on Voyager..If there is something please tell me ?"

You're still trying to work the crowd based on your incorrect ideas. You're not going to get anywhere.

"Well if StarFleet just takes anyone who calls a few lucky shots but has no experience and makes them captain then it's no wonder they're in ruins."

Hur De Hur.

I Am Ultra Narcissus.

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Feb. 28 2013, 6:24 pm

Quote: He'sDeadJim6400 @ Feb. 28 2013, 5:38 pm

>Ah so you want a debate ?


sure, lets just see if you have any arguments that hold weight


I'm pretty sure the Uhura earned her place on the Original Series Enterprise through her skills, not because she was in love with the first officer.


Well lets see, Nu Uhura could speak several dialects of the Romulan languge when she was at the start of her career.


Prime Uhura couldnt even sapeak standerd Klingon after 40 years at the job.


And PS, Prime Uhura couldnt even break the romulan code in "Blance of terror", seems Nu Uhura has far better skills.


Spock was Vulcan / human split into two, that's what made him a great character, but he followed the Vulcan was and never did he let a woman persuade him to do something he didn't want to.


Did you ever see the TOS episodes "This Side of Paradise" or "All our yesterdays"?


in both cases, A Woman was in part, what persuaded him into doing something he normally wouldnt do.


nd lets not forget the tos eposide "Amok Time"., a woman made him fight and kill Kirk in that one.


Now I dont disagree that the jump to captain wasnt handled right, but I dont find it completly unbelievable if they had tried to explain it better.


And its not like it hasnt been done before in Trek.


Picard vwas originally described as a young inexperience bridge officer that took command of the Stargaszer after the captain was killed.


It wasnt till a few seasons later that they said he was ever a first officer.So you can call it a contradiction or a retcon.


And lets not forget how a CIVILLIAN labor, a janitor as he described his duities, took command of a Klingon ship durring a Romulan attack and was immediatley afterwards given a field commision to Captasin.


That was Martok by the way


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guillermo.mejía

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Report this Mar. 01 2013, 4:52 am

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Feb. 28 2013, 5:03 pm

Quote: guillermo.mejía @ Feb. 28 2013, 11:49 am

>

>I'm still not sure where you got that he was a Lieutenant......He was made First Officer.....but that role carries no automatic promotion.

it was seen on screan, when Kirk and Sulu were in free fall and Paval was trying to beam them up

Kirk,Sulu and Uhura all held the same rank

Thanks for the screencap, I hadn't seen that.


I still don't like how they don't address this in the dialogue in the film. That's a frantic scene and people aren't exactly looking to read to rapid moving text..


But I stand corrected. Looks like he WAS made a Lt. off-screen.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

fireproof78

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Report this Mar. 01 2013, 1:27 pm

Quote: He'sDeadJim6400 @ Feb. 28 2013, 5:38 pm

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Feb. 27 2013, 9:13 pm

Quote: He'sDeadJim6400 @ Feb. 27 2013, 4:59 pm

>

>

>Spock in Abrams movie was very weak, never should a disipline Vulcan fall into the arms of a HUMAN female in times of crisis..THe writting in the movie is very bad, not only is the time travel concept  is silly, a villian WASTED 25 years looking for Spock, so yeah there has been evil guys in Star Trek, but they had a purpose, and I hate to get into how wrong Uhura was portrayed in the movie, Uhura was always classy, not a bossy go getter..You mention Kirk, yeah he did evolve within the movie, though in a silly way, no matter how smart you are, no one can jump from cadet to captain of the flagship in that short time, and don't let me get started on Pike..But if you like the movie,  good for you.  

The issue here is your comprehension skills and your over all knowlidge of Trek and its characters.

To start, Spock is a vulcan /human hibrid, so its no shock that his "disipline" wavers from time to time.As a matter of fact we saw pleanty of that in the originasl series.

Nero, the villian , didnt wait 25 years looking for Spock,, he was locked in a klingon prision all that time.

Original Uhura couldnt even speak Klingon after serving as commnuication officer for over 30 years..........how incompetent is that?At least Nu Uhura was portrayed as if she was good at her job.

And you really need to pay attention to what seen and said in the filmn, Kirk held the rank of Lieutenant, so Kirk went from Lieutenant to captain.

And please, go ahead and start on Pike, I for one would love to see how you fail in your observations.

 

Ah so you want a debate ? I'm pretty sure the Uhura earned her place on the Original Series Enterprise through her skills, not because she was in love with the first officer..

Spock was Vulcan / human split into two, that's what made him a great character, but he followed the Vulcan was and never did he let a woman persuade him to do something he didn't want to. there is nothing unique about JJ Abrams Spock, we all seen it done better by Nimoy in TOS and even Tuvok on Voyager..If there is something please tell me ?

As I said earlier, I like the realism in Star Trek, Real soldiers following real protocol..In TOS Kirk served one or two ships before he got the Enterprise, he was trained an experienced, no serious Military will give command of a green "Lieutenant" who got lucky and stop a bad guy, that's foolish, the most he would get is be promoted to in charge of security,no matter how serious the situation, you must be qualified to command, give orders and follow orders, he wasn't suppose to be on the Enterprise, but Pike being a weak leader let him stay AND foolishly promoted him to XO . Only in a bugs bunny cartoon would a kid Start out with nothing then is a captain of the  federation flagship, but coming from JJ Abrams that's not surprising. 


Warning: Long, winding fan thesis following.


The arguments against Kirk's promotion have been made and made again with the tireless argument "The military doesn't work that way" vs "Kirk earned it because of his clear decision making in a crisis."


I get that no argument will ever satisfy everyone but I will make an attempt. I mean no offense to anyone but I will be picking apart some comments.


There are several claims about Kirk's promotion would not work in any real world military. However, Starfleet is not a real world military. Despite later incarnations of Starfleet, it is not a military organization.


This goes back to Roddenberry's original inspiration for Starfleet. He was inspired by Robert Heinlein's "Space Cadet" novel which describes an exploration and peace keeping organization from the viewpoint of a cadet from Iowa.


One of the best descriptions of the Space Patrol in Space Cadet is that it is not a military organization. Yes, it has a military structure but it is not a military like the American Navy. It is certainly inspired by the American Navy but it is not one to one comparison.


In Starfleet, we have been shown that cadets can be moved in to the chain of command as matter of their schooling. Saavik being a great example as a senior, command school, cadet who is shown wearing lieutenant's rank in Wrath of Khan. Saavik easily steps in to the chain, being given the bridge towards the end of the movie.


So, we have precedent that cadets are not just cadets, but expected to be able to step in to the chain of command.


In addition to film examples, we also have real world military and fictional military examples. One aspect of military life is the chain of command. In Starship Troopers, it is discussed that the chain is there to ensure that people know their place, that it is real organization to maintain order. In that novel, officer candidates are made 3rd lieutenants to place them in the chain of command, to give orders and command troops in a legal manner.


In a similar manner, if cadets were to serve in an emergency situation, such as McCoy or Uhura, they would need to be placed in the chain of command. Once that is done, they are eligible to move up that chain if officers are killed or incapacitated. McCoy becomes chief medical officer after the Enterprise's CMO is killed in Nero's attack. Similarly, Scotty takes over as Chief Engineer once aboard the Enterprise.


Kirk may have only been a cadet-lieutenant but once Pike placed him as first officer, he was placed above in the chain of command. While no promotion may not have been apart of it, it clearly shows Pike's confidence in Kirk.


In addition, how many officers were lost in Nero's attacks? How many officers were available to fill in the lost positions. How will Starfleet will replace those experienced line officers from the destroyed ships? How many experienced officers are available?


Kirk had command school experience, field experience, the recommendations of two line officers.


Is it fast? Yes, but it makes more sense than many give it. However, is Kirk ready? I think Into Darkness will answer that.


 


Thanks for reading !

fireproof78

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Report this Mar. 01 2013, 1:28 pm

Quote: guillermo.mejía @ Mar. 01 2013, 4:52 am

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Feb. 28 2013, 5:03 pm

Quote: guillermo.mejía @ Feb. 28 2013, 11:49 am

>

>

>I'm still not sure where you got that he was a Lieutenant......He was made First Officer.....but that role carries no automatic promotion.

it was seen on screan, when Kirk and Sulu were in free fall and Paval was trying to beam them up

Kirk,Sulu and Uhura all held the same rank

Thanks for the screencap, I hadn't seen that.

I still don't like how they don't address this in the dialogue in the film. That's a frantic scene and people aren't exactly looking to read to rapid moving text..

But I stand corrected. Looks like he WAS made a Lt. off-screen.


There is precedent for that since Saavik was also a Lieutenant in Wrath of Khan.

VORTEX8472

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Report this Mar. 01 2013, 5:03 pm

I think people forget that part of Star Trek 2009's premise was to shake things up, characters, events, technology; it's an alternate timeline.  TNG's "Parallels" clearly showed that the presence of alternate universes in Star Trek.  Just as Troi & Worf were married and had a child in another reality, Spock & Uhura could fall in love in another reality given an entirely new set of historical events and therefore personal choices on the part of Spock and Uhura. 


As for the Rank discussion, all that comes to my mind is when Nog was given a battlefield commission of Ensign during the Dominion War, even though he had not completed his academy training.  


In ST09 we were told that the bulk of Starfleet was engaged in another sector (no specifics were detailed), so naturally the Federation "...a peacekeeping & humanitarian armada..." - Captain Pike to Kirk, mobilized every asset available to them to aid Vulcan, this obviously included senior Cadets to fill vacant positions on the starships in Earth orbit. Remember Sulu replaced the original pilot (apparently ill), Uhura was stationed at an auxillory communications console, McCoy was under the command of the Ent's original CMO, & Kirk with the help of McCoy managed to get onboard.  


Although I agree that Kirk's rapid advancement to Captain was unorthodox, considering the state of the Starfleet following Nero's attacks; I guess giving him command was a relatively small reward for his heroism in the face of an enemy that would have certainly destroyed the Earth in mere minutes had not Kirk taken command when he did.  I'm hoping Into Darkness will bring up Kirk's inexperience with well anything. I got the feeling that Pike's dialogue in the trailer foreshadows a lecture to Kirk about his overtly arrogant and over confident attitude towards command. 


 

He'sDeadJim6400

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Report this Mar. 01 2013, 9:54 pm

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Feb. 28 2013, 6:24 pm

Quote: He'sDeadJim6400 @ Feb. 28 2013, 5:38 pm

>

>Ah so you want a debate ?

sure, lets just see if you have any arguments that hold weight

I'm pretty sure the Uhura earned her place on the Original Series Enterprise through her skills, not because she was in love with the first officer.

Well lets see, Nu Uhura could speak several dialects of the Romulan languge when she was at the start of her career.

Prime Uhura couldnt even sapeak standerd Klingon after 40 years at the job.

And PS, Prime Uhura couldnt even break the romulan code in "Blance of terror", seems Nu Uhura has far better skills.

Spock was Vulcan / human split into two, that's what made him a great character, but he followed the Vulcan was and never did he let a woman persuade him to do something he didn't want to.

Did you ever see the TOS episodes "This Side of Paradise" or "All our yesterdays"?

in both cases, A Woman was in part, what persuaded him into doing something he normally wouldnt do.

nd lets not forget the tos eposide "Amok Time"., a woman made him fight and kill Kirk in that one.

Now I dont disagree that the jump to captain wasnt handled right, but I dont find it completly unbelievable if they had tried to explain it better.

And its not like it hasnt been done before in Trek.

Picard vwas originally described as a young inexperience bridge officer that took command of the Stargaszer after the captain was killed.

It wasnt till a few seasons later that they said he was ever a first officer.So you can call it a contradiction or a retcon.

And lets not forget how a CIVILLIAN labor, a janitor as he described his duities, took command of a Klingon ship durring a Romulan attack and was immediatley afterwards given a field commision to Captasin.

That was Martok by the way


I think classic Uhura defined her skills clearly, Not only was she in charge of the communications dept, she could also work the helm to pilot the ship, if she didn't speak alien dialects, so what ? they used the universal translator which is more effective..If seems Nu Uhura was more interested in Spock than he was in her.


In some episodes Spock's behavior became compromised by influences  "Amok Time " it was Pon Farr, in "This side of Paradise " it was the spores, in "All Our Yesterdays" Spock went back in time and reverted to the behavior of his ancestors, Spocks character was destroyed in Abrams movie..


 


Picard was good enough to lead when given the chance, he spent enough time in Star Fleet perfecting his skills.


Martok is a Klingon, they move up in rank through assasinations. 


Greatness comes to those who really want to do anything to get it.

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Mar. 01 2013, 10:28 pm

Quote: He'sDeadJim6400 @ Mar. 01 2013, 9:54 pm

>

>I think classic Uhura defined her skills clearly, Not only was she in charge of the communications dept, she could also work the helm to pilot the ship, if she didn't speak alien dialects, so what ? they used the universal translator which is more effective.


Sorry but you are wrong there, or have you forgotton "The undiscovered country"


the universal translater could not be used because they would have been caught in klingon territory.


So what that she didnt speak Klingon or romulan?>???Dude, that was her job, and apparently she was incompetent


.If seems Nu Uhura was more interested in Spock than he was in her.


I dont see a point here


In some episodes Spock's behavior became compromised by influences 


multible influances, which included women, deny it to yourself if youj like, but we all know the truth.


Picard was good enough to lead when given the chance, he spent enough time in Star Fleet perfecting his skills.


He wasant in the fleet that long when he took command of the Stargazer


Martok is a Klingon, they move up in rank through assasinations. 


Maybe you should do some research before you post.


Thats not how Martok moved up in rank, heck he wasnt even a soldier, he was a janitor.


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