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New Movie Villian

banditt59

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 28

Report this Nov. 25 2012, 1:37 pm

I would love to see Kahn again, but at the same time the original Kahn was so amazing i don't know if a new Kahn would even come close.

johnd777

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POSTS: 1029

Report this Nov. 25 2012, 3:29 pm

How about some one new?


Reboot needs to establish its own cannon / history.


Anyone familiar with my posts knows I emphasized the reuse of old characters, making some different or even another gender or race...


but JJ and the gang need to establish their own pathway and hopefully it won't take fandom so long to recognize the genius involved like they took with Star Trek Enterprise


 


 


.

Sehlat123

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 496

Report this Nov. 25 2012, 4:33 pm

Quote: johnd777 @ Nov. 25 2012, 3:29 pm

>

>How about some one new?

>Reboot needs to establish its own cannon / history.

>


I agree, I think it is annoying how they copy TOS characters. I hope they introduce new characters. But I also wish they had made a movie with new characters, not reused the old ones.


"Borg. Sounds Swedish."

Hugues

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 537

Report this Nov. 26 2012, 6:58 am

A new vilain would be better. But having appearances of some original TOS characters like Janice Rand or Christine Chapel would be fun.


DS9 RULES!!!!!

Vger23

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6799

Report this Nov. 26 2012, 4:25 pm

The identity of the villain shouldn't matter. All that should matter is the story and what that villain does. 

silvik123

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1245

Report this Nov. 26 2012, 6:00 pm

Quote: johnd777 @ Nov. 25 2012, 3:29 pm

>

>How about some one new?

>Reboot needs to establish its own cannon / history.

>Anyone familiar with my posts knows I emphasized the reuse of old characters, making some different or even another gender or race...

>but JJ and the gang need to establish their own pathway and hopefully it won't take fandom so long to recognize the genius involved like they took with Star Trek Enterprise

>


 


Exactly, I don't want to see a repeat villain despite the fact that the last two Star Trek movie villains were shallow and uninspiring and not very threatening. I'd like to see a new villain with time taken to give him some depth. Nobody would be as great a Kahn as Ricardo Montalban so I definitely don't want to see a rehashed character too soon.

Hugues

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 537

Report this Nov. 26 2012, 10:49 pm

TWOK: Kahn ??? Only Ricardo Montalban's great performance gave Kahn's motivation any credence. It was obvious that Kahn went insane but he had no real beef against Kirk. Sure he might have wanted to take over the galaxy but he had no reason to personalise it against Kirk


Kirk left him and his crew on a planet with almost nothing to survive. The planet became unhabitable. His wife died. Kirk did not arrange to have a ship checking once in a while if they were doing ok. I would take it personally too.


NEM: Shinzon -Why go after Picard? What did he do? 


Shinzon needed Picard's blood to survive.



 


 


DS9 RULES!!!!!

Mitchz95

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POSTS: 1830

Report this Nov. 27 2012, 10:03 am

TMP: ??? Why did Vger want to destroy the Earth - really?


It thought the humans on Earth were infesting the Creator's planet - it didn't know that they WERE the Creators.


TWOK: Kahn ??? Only Ricardo Montalban's great performance gave Kahn's motivation any credence. It was obvious that Kahn went insane but he had no real beef against Kirk. Sure he might have wanted to take over the galaxy but he had no reason to personalise it against Kirk


He did go a bit far, yes. But I think his motivations were pretty clear - Kirk marooned him and his people on Ceit Alpha V and never bothered to check up on them.


TVH: The probe wanting to annihilate Earth because no-one answered its call was pretty lame to me


Its transmissions were responsible. It didn't mean to cause problems.


GEN: Soran - why go through all that balderdash, why kill millions, why the Nexus - it looks lame to me


He wanted to get into the Nexus so he could live forever.


NEM: Shinzon -Why go after Picard? What did he do? 


He wanted to outshine Picard in the history books and therefore establish himself as a "real person" insead of just an "echo" of Picard.


ST09: Nero - What the hell did the Federation do to Nero?


Apparently he blamed them for the destruction of Romulus. Since we didn't really witness much of what happened in 2387, we don't really know much of the truth.


"The future is in the hands of those who explore... And from all the beauty they discover while crossing perpetually receding frontiers, they develop for nature and for humankind an infinite love." - Jacques Yves Cousteau

Vger23

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POSTS: 6799

Report this Nov. 27 2012, 10:37 am

You're never going to get a "great" villian in a Star Trek movie, kids. Khan was unique becuase he had a rich back-story from the series.


Trek movies spend their time on developing the main characters. Any time spent on the villian just takes away from that. It's not a worthwhile trade-off. This isn't "Batman" where there's really only 1-2 main characters and a villian. Star Trek has 7 beloved characters who all deserve some screen time. So, you're not going to get a richly developed villian. Nor should you want one, at the expense of developing the characters who really matter.


 

ram030973

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1

Report this Nov. 27 2012, 2:01 pm

Reading some of these responses makes me think that most people weren't exactly paying atention to the movies while they were watching them.  ALL the antagonists had proper motivations (even when there were no "villains", i.e. I, IV and V).


The Motion Picture - V'Ger was like a child.  An old Earth probe that was converted and upgraded by artificial intelligence on an all-machine planet that was on a quest to return "home" and join with its creator.  Not evil.  Not malevolent.  And really only becoming truly threatening when perceiving a threat from an outside force.  It didn't travel to Earth specifically TO destroy the Earth.  That was just an unplanned consequence when it didn't find what it was looking for initially.  Once Decker joined with it, thus providing V'Ger with a "creator" figure... BOOM! Threat gone.


The Wrath of Khan - The most personal villain storyline, but really only if you're familiar with the original series episode "Space Seed".  Khan and his followers were late 20th Century genetically-engineered supermen who, when brought out of their centuries-old hybernation continued their bred-in ways of conquest and became a threat to the Enterprise.  Kirk, rather than killing of imprisoniong them, found a suitible planet for them to colonize where they could presumably do no harm.  In between the episode and the movie, a neighboring planet exploded, the shockwave laying waste to the paradise-like planet Kirk had selected for them and killing most of Khan's followers including his wife.  For Khan, the only thing that mattered was revenge against Kirk.  The Genesis device was just icing on the cake to him.


The Search for Spock - A Cold-War metaphor to the arms race.  A renegade Klingon commander sees the Genesis weapon as an all-powerful WEAPON, not a device used to create new worlds.  He is seeking to gain control of the secrets of this weapon to level the playing field between the Klingon Empire and the Federation.


The Voyage Home - Another non-villain story, where a probe was sent seeking to find the answers as to why Humpback whales were no longer in communication with them.  Here, the plot device was solving a problem, not fighting an enemy.


The Final Frontier - I don't consider Sybok to be a villain, as he really wasn't trying to attack or kill anyone.  He was merely a religious fanatic who wanted to meet God and prove that God exists.  Once he proved the barrier could be breached, he immediately relinquished control of the Enterprise back to Kirk.  (The Klingon "villain" motivation was TRULY pitiful, though, and entirely unnecessary except as a weak attempt to try and show the roots of the Federation-Klingon truce now that The Next Generation had started its television run.  This was a plot idea that was MUCH beter explored in the next movie.)


The Undiscovered Country - Another Cold War allegory (something Star Trek has EXCELLED at over the many years).  "People can be very frightened of change"... so they had their motivations for trying to stop peace talks from occurring.


Generations - This one REALLY interests me, as it is a great twist on drug addiction.  (Whoa!  What???)  Yep.  Drug addition.  Listen to Guinan's explanation of what the Nexus is.  It is a place of infinite joy.  Soran was ripped away from the Nexus involuntarily by the Enterprise B, and he was willing to do anything... ANYTHING... to get back to that place.  It didn't matter what he destroyed or who he killed, he HAD to get back there.


First Contact - No real moral to this one.  The Borg were facing a long and heated war with the Alpha Quadrant and figured the best way to win was to go back in time and stop the Federation from ever being formed.  Want a REAL interesting take on this one?  Picard's underlying motivations essesntially became those of Khan's.  Was Picard a villain, then?...


Insurrection - This is the only one I don't truly get.  With only a couple of hunderd people on the planet, why couldn't the Son'a simply SHARE the planet with their Ba'ku relatives?  Surely there had to be enopugh room on AN ENTIRE PLANET to be how they wanted to be differently and not have contact.


Nemesis - A morality play on the nature of duality and how it is our experiences that form us, not genetics.  Shinzon essentially wanted to be the Abraham Lincoln of the Reman race, freeing them as slaves, but harsher.  He wanted to punish the Romulans for the treatment of the Remans, and in order to extend his own life, he needed a complete blood transfusion from the original Picard.  What exactly his beef against the Federation was remains the weak link to his motivation.


Star Trek - Nero was another Khan-like villain whose motivation was revenge... this time against Spock, for failing to prevent the destruction of his homeworld, Romulus.  All that mattered to him was making Spock endure what he himself had to endure: viewing the destruction of his home.  However, just as with Shinzon, why he felt the need to go after the Federation as well... who knows?


So each villain (or antagonist) had very pronounced and clearly defined PRIMARY motivations.  In the later movies it was the secondary ones that appeared to be somewhat of a hindrance to the telling of the story.

Vger23

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6799

Report this Nov. 27 2012, 5:03 pm

Quote: ram030973 @ Nov. 27 2012, 2:01 pm

>

>Reading some of these responses makes me think that most people weren't exactly paying atention to the movies while they were watching them.  ALL the antagonists had proper motivations (even when there were no "villains", i.e. I, IV and V).

>The Motion Picture - V'Ger was like a child.  An old Earth probe that was converted and upgraded by artificial intelligence on an all-machine planet that was on a quest to return "home" and join with its creator.  Not evil.  Not malevolent.  And really only becoming truly threatening when perceiving a threat from an outside force.  It didn't travel to Earth specifically TO destroy the Earth.  That was just an unplanned consequence when it didn't find what it was looking for initially.  Once Decker joined with it, thus providing V'Ger with a "creator" figure... BOOM! Threat gone.

>The Wrath of Khan - The most personal villain storyline, but really only if you're familiar with the original series episode "Space Seed".  Khan and his followers were late 20th Century genetically-engineered supermen who, when brought out of their centuries-old hybernation continued their bred-in ways of conquest and became a threat to the Enterprise.  Kirk, rather than killing of imprisoniong them, found a suitible planet for them to colonize where they could presumably do no harm.  In between the episode and the movie, a neighboring planet exploded, the shockwave laying waste to the paradise-like planet Kirk had selected for them and killing most of Khan's followers including his wife.  For Khan, the only thing that mattered was revenge against Kirk.  The Genesis device was just icing on the cake to him.

>The Search for Spock - A Cold-War metaphor to the arms race.  A renegade Klingon commander sees the Genesis weapon as an all-powerful WEAPON, not a device used to create new worlds.  He is seeking to gain control of the secrets of this weapon to level the playing field between the Klingon Empire and the Federation.

>The Voyage Home - Another non-villain story, where a probe was sent seeking to find the answers as to why Humpback whales were no longer in communication with them.  Here, the plot device was solving a problem, not fighting an enemy.

>The Final Frontier - I don't consider Sybok to be a villain, as he really wasn't trying to attack or kill anyone.  He was merely a religious fanatic who wanted to meet God and prove that God exists.  Once he proved the barrier could be breached, he immediately relinquished control of the Enterprise back to Kirk.  (The Klingon "villain" motivation was TRULY pitiful, though, and entirely unnecessary except as a weak attempt to try and show the roots of the Federation-Klingon truce now that The Next Generation had started its television run.  This was a plot idea that was MUCH beter explored in the next movie.)

>The Undiscovered Country - Another Cold War allegory (something Star Trek has EXCELLED at over the many years).  "People can be very frightened of change"... so they had their motivations for trying to stop peace talks from occurring.

>Generations - This one REALLY interests me, as it is a great twist on drug addiction.  (Whoa!  What???)  Yep.  Drug addition.  Listen to Guinan's explanation of what the Nexus is.  It is a place of infinite joy.  Soran was ripped away from the Nexus involuntarily by the Enterprise B, and he was willing to do anything... ANYTHING... to get back to that place.  It didn't matter what he destroyed or who he killed, he HAD to get back there.

>First Contact - No real moral to this one.  The Borg were facing a long and heated war with the Alpha Quadrant and figured the best way to win was to go back in time and stop the Federation from ever being formed.  Want a REAL interesting take on this one?  Picard's underlying motivations essesntially became those of Khan's.  Was Picard a villain, then?...

>Insurrection - This is the only one I don't truly get.  With only a couple of hunderd people on the planet, why couldn't the Son'a simply SHARE the planet with their Ba'ku relatives?  Surely there had to be enopugh room on AN ENTIRE PLANET to be how they wanted to be differently and not have contact.

>Nemesis - A morality play on the nature of duality and how it is our experiences that form us, not genetics.  Shinzon essentially wanted to be the Abraham Lincoln of the Reman race, freeing them as slaves, but harsher.  He wanted to punish the Romulans for the treatment of the Remans, and in order to extend his own life, he needed a complete blood transfusion from the original Picard.  What exactly his beef against the Federation was remains the weak link to his motivation.

>Star Trek - Nero was another Khan-like villain whose motivation was revenge... this time against Spock, for failing to prevent the destruction of his homeworld, Romulus.  All that mattered to him was making Spock endure what he himself had to endure: viewing the destruction of his home.  However, just as with Shinzon, why he felt the need to go after the Federation as well... who knows?

>So each villain (or antagonist) had very pronounced and clearly defined PRIMARY motivations.  In the later movies it was the secondary ones that appeared to be somewhat of a hindrance to the telling of the story.

>


 


Great post! You should stick around!!


 



I AM KEE-ROCK!!

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