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Was the Borg overused in Voyager

corndogs

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Report this Jul. 15 2012, 2:43 pm

I would say no, the Borg were not overused in Voyager.

captain saavik

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Report this Jul. 15 2012, 4:06 pm

I don't believe that voyager over used the Borg. I think that the point of using
the Borg so much was the personal vendetta between the queen and janeway
which was extremely well done leading up to the last episode when janeway senior
and junior defeated the queen personally.

KelisThePoet

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Report this Jul. 16 2012, 10:23 am

I think the answer to this question depends on how one thinks about Seven of Nine.


Apart from Seven, the Borg were not actually used all that much on the show, considering the length of the series.  There were only a handful of episodes in which the Borg were the primary antagonist or plot problem.  There were a few more episodes in which the Borg sort of hovered in the background to add a bit of plot tension, much as the other antagonistic groups do in other Star Trek shows.  I wouldn't, for instance, classify "Blood Fever" as a "Borg episode" of Voyager or "Elaan of Troyius" as a "Klingon episode" of the original series.


But, of course, Seven of Nine was far from irrelevant to the Borg, and she was always on the show, offering a(n arguably) Borg cultural perspective on things, providing Borg technology and technical knowledge, etc.  Contrary to some fan claims, Seven did not take over the show.  She was not featured disproportionately, compared to the other major characters, but she was a major character.  In this respect, the Borg were less like the Klingons of the original series, more like the Vulcans.  Would you say that the Vulcans were overused (or heavily used in a good way) in the original show?  Well, Spock was obviously used a lot, anyway.


I think some of the fan resistance to the Borg in Voyager is at heart a resistance to Seven, since the show obviously went in a new direction with the introduction of a new major character midway through.  But personally, I think the change was warranted.  And I think Seven's character was an ingenious way to feature the Borg without making every story about Borg battles.  The Voyager crew got an opportunity to frequently encounter the Borg, so to speak, through Seven, but those encounters didn't weaken the Collective as a threat.


Falor was a prosperous merchant who went on a journey to gain greater awareness: Through storms he crossed the Voroth Sea/ To reach the clouded shores of Raal/ Where old T’Para offered truth./ He traveled through the windswept hills/ And crossed the barren Fire Plains/ To find the silent monks of Kir./ Still unfulfilled, he journeyed home/ Told stories of the lessons learned/ And gained true wisdom by the giving. – Falor’s Journey, “Innocence”

starlisa

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Report this Jul. 16 2012, 11:17 am

I agree one's feelings on this does depend a lot on whether one is a Seven fan  or not.


If some of us feel that Seven came to dominate the show then obviously there was some mismanagement of her character by the writers and producers. Maybe she didn't get more screen time than Janeway, certainly not in the finale, but her character was a major player in the finale even if she wasn't in it much. Saying it was The Seven of Nine show was probably a bit harsh, but I think it had defintiely become the Janeway, Seven and Doctor show by the end. I'd have liked to have seen the other characters have more stories and better development, mainly Tuvok, Neelix, Harry and Chakotay. Considering the popularity of the doctor, I don't think his character really fared well in the end either. His love for Seven was treated like a joke, when his character arc was supposed to be the acceptance of him as a sentient being and not just a computer program. His feelings deserved more respect and his character deserved better closure.


I think, in many ways, feelings towards Endgame shows the importance of a good ending. Had the finale been different, I think feelings towards Seven might be different in some quarters. But not only did she get a lot of screen time, but she intruded upon other aspects of the show that some of us loved like J/C. For me, and I think for some others, that was too much. I know I'm not alone in wishing that was one thing the writers could have had Seven leave alone. I also found it annoying that both Janeway and Chakotay never recovered from her death in the admiral's future. Why was she so special? Janeway had lost a fiance and her father but recovered, and Chakotay had lost his entire family. It was unbelievable and elevated her to being akin to the most important person on the ship, the one all the main characters couldn't live without from Janeway to Chakotay to The Doctor. It was just all too much for me and made the finale a great disappointment.


But Seven is a great character and the Borg great villains. I hate to be critical of a show I love very much, but the ending still gets to me, lol.

KelisThePoet

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Report this Jul. 17 2012, 4:39 pm

I don't think the Doctor's love for Seven was treated as a joke.  His feelings did lead to a few humorous situations (romantic feelings often do in television programs), but that's different than the feelings themselves becoming the joke.


One important aspect of "Endgame" to keep in mind is that a lot of the plot happened in an alternate time line.  There was also an alternate time line ("Before and After") in which Kes became much more important to both Tom and the Doctor than she ever was in the actual time line.  I don't have a hard time believing or imagining that, in some hypothetical sequence of many future events, Seven could become much more important to Chakotay than she was in the actual time line.


As for Janeway, I think Tuvok and Seven's fates in the alternate future were both prime motivations for the actions taken by both Captain and Admiral Janeway in "Endgame."  And that makes sense to me.  Tuvok had been one of Janeway's closest friends in her life before the Delta Quadrant, and Seven became arguably her closest friend on Voyager.


But I do take the point that "Endgame" seemed to make a broader statement about the importance of Seven to the entire series simply because it was the series finale.  The writers were in a difficult position, there, and did the best thing, in my opinion.  A loose, sloppy curtain-call ensemble episode would have made for a bad story and a predictable finale, so the writers were wise to narrow in on a few characters--and you couldn't really expect them to narrow in on one of the minor ones.  However Harry or Chakotay might have been developed differently throughout the series, by the time we got to "Endgame," a finale about Harry wouldn't have felt at all right.  Janeway was the obvious choice, and Seven was the most important person in her life at that point in her life, so the pieces just fell into the right place, I think.


Falor was a prosperous merchant who went on a journey to gain greater awareness: Through storms he crossed the Voroth Sea/ To reach the clouded shores of Raal/ Where old T’Para offered truth./ He traveled through the windswept hills/ And crossed the barren Fire Plains/ To find the silent monks of Kir./ Still unfulfilled, he journeyed home/ Told stories of the lessons learned/ And gained true wisdom by the giving. – Falor’s Journey, “Innocence”

KelisThePoet

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Report this Jul. 17 2012, 4:47 pm

Quote: starlisa @ Jul. 16 2012, 11:17 am

>If some of us feel that Seven came to dominate the show then obviously there was some mismanagement of her character by the writers and producers.


If some of the show's fans feel that Seven came to dominate the show, then the only obvious conclusion to be drawn is that some of the shows' fans wanted to see less of Seven.  I'm not saying the desire for less Seven is unwarranted, but it is debatable whether using her less would have improved the show.  It's debatable what effect on the show a different emphasis would have had.  Ultimately, I suspect it might come down to subjective taste and preference, thus can't really be qualitatively labeled character "mismanagement" on the part of the writers and producers.


Falor was a prosperous merchant who went on a journey to gain greater awareness: Through storms he crossed the Voroth Sea/ To reach the clouded shores of Raal/ Where old T’Para offered truth./ He traveled through the windswept hills/ And crossed the barren Fire Plains/ To find the silent monks of Kir./ Still unfulfilled, he journeyed home/ Told stories of the lessons learned/ And gained true wisdom by the giving. – Falor’s Journey, “Innocence”

starlisa

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Report this Jul. 17 2012, 6:14 pm

Well, if you feel that Seven was the most important person to Janeway by the end of the series,  then it kind of proves my point


Whether one liked the ending or not is certainly subjective, but when so many fans feel let down by the finale, in particular C/7, I don't think it is subjective to say bad decisions were made by the writers and producers. C/7 cost the franchise viewers and there really can't be a worse move than that.

KelisThePoet

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Report this Jul. 18 2012, 1:06 am

Quote: starlisa @ Jul. 17 2012, 6:14 pm

>Well, if you feel that Seven was the most important person to Janeway by the end of the series,  then it kind of proves my point
What point does it prove?  It proves that Seven was heavily emphasized by the end of the series.  It doesn't prove that such emphasis was mismanaged or that Seven's importance to the other characters was implausible.


And writers' decisions aren't bad just because "many" fans and viewers disagree with those decisions--at least, those decisions aren't artistically or creatively bad.  Artistic value isn't determined by opinion poll, nor does a writer do a poor job of telling a story just because a reader wants a different story.  Now, maybe the writers made bad financial or marketing decisions if they took the show in a direction that lost viewer support, but I've never seen any convincing evidence that the majority of the viewers were against the emphasis on Seven or that the show's emphasis on Seven can be clearly linked to any drop in viewership.  I'm certainly highly skeptical of the claim that Seven's romance with Chakotay cost the show any significant amount of viewers.  The romance wasn't even hinted at until late in the last season and it wasn't overtly developed until the very last episode, so even if it negatively impacted viewer response, how could it possibly negatively impact viewership?  It isn't as if all the people upset by the romance in "Endgame" could retaliate against the series by refusing to watch the following week.


Falor was a prosperous merchant who went on a journey to gain greater awareness: Through storms he crossed the Voroth Sea/ To reach the clouded shores of Raal/ Where old T’Para offered truth./ He traveled through the windswept hills/ And crossed the barren Fire Plains/ To find the silent monks of Kir./ Still unfulfilled, he journeyed home/ Told stories of the lessons learned/ And gained true wisdom by the giving. – Falor’s Journey, “Innocence”

starlisa

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POSTS: 163

Report this Jul. 18 2012, 3:27 am

Many fans, including myself, never watched Enterprise because of C/7. Certainly artistic value is a matter of opinion, but there comes a point when a collective voice speaks, and Endgame was sadly a let down for many fans. The franchise can either ask why and learn from it, by listening to fans who take the time to air their opinions, or ignore the fact and keep on making the same mistakes. Isn't that what discussions are for? To get opinions from all sides and not just try to shout your own the loudest? I respect that you feel differently, that the series ended well for you, but all I'm saying is that not all of us feel the same way, and the fact that so many of us feel the ending was a let down, merits at least the question of why.

Fleet Admiral Braxton

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Report this Jul. 18 2012, 4:20 pm

Is It The Writer's Fault The Borg Assimilated So Much Space?

KelisThePoet

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Report this Jul. 18 2012, 5:04 pm

Quote: starlisa @ Jul. 18 2012, 3:27 am

>Many fans, including myself, never watched Enterprise because of C/7. Certainly artistic value is a matter of opinion, but there comes a point when a collective voice speaks, and Endgame was sadly a let down for many fans. The franchise can either ask why and learn from it, by listening to fans who take the time to air their opinions, or ignore the fact and keep on making the same mistakes. Isn't that what discussions are for? To get opinions from all sides and not just try to shout your own the loudest? I respect that you feel differently, that the series ended well for you, but all I'm saying is that not all of us feel the same way, and the fact that so many of us feel the ending was a let down, merits at least the question of why.
Certainly everyone has the right to his/her opinion, and I'm interested to hear different individual opinions about how a show worked.  Sorry if I suggest(ed) anything to the contrary.  I am, however, wary of the idea that the creators of a tv show/franchise should listen to and learn from the so-called collective voice of fan viewers.


First of all, determining what that collective voice says proves to be near impossible.  I think that even marketing focus groups give skewed, problematic results, yet the data collected from those groups is far more scientific and reliable than a sampling of opinions from fan forums like this one.  Most viewers of the Star Trek franchise will never come here, and those who do are more likely to voice negative feelings because voluntary polls and open opinion forums generally attract a higher percentage of negative responses.  It's usually the people who feel they have something to complain about who speak up.  Individuals make up their opinions and decide what to watch for a variety of legitimate reasons, and I respect the individual decisions of some fans to forego Enterprise because of "Endgame."  But I remain highly skeptical that a significant percentage of viewers decided never to give a series a chance because a different (albeit related) series added a minor complication to some character relationships in one of its episodes.


Secondly, and more importantly to me, no individual, or plurality, or overwhelming majority gets to decide what makes a good story for someone else.  Two or more individuals can have an interesting debate or exchange of personal opinions on the merits of a show, but one cannot prove the other wrong just by citing strength in numbers.  And personally, I'm a little bothered by an internet climate in which objectively "good" entertainment has become synonomous with whatever is most popular right now. (I do realize that not every individual who expresses a popular opinion is responsible for that internet climate as a whole.)


Falor was a prosperous merchant who went on a journey to gain greater awareness: Through storms he crossed the Voroth Sea/ To reach the clouded shores of Raal/ Where old T’Para offered truth./ He traveled through the windswept hills/ And crossed the barren Fire Plains/ To find the silent monks of Kir./ Still unfulfilled, he journeyed home/ Told stories of the lessons learned/ And gained true wisdom by the giving. – Falor’s Journey, “Innocence”

starlisa

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Report this Jul. 19 2012, 5:06 am

I totally agree that it is not a good idea to make decisions based exclusively on what is said on fanboards. And I have often wondered if the rise of the internet did change the direction Voyager went because of some vocal fans on maybe the trekbbs or elsewhere. Opinions that don't really capture the views and feelings of the fanbase at large. I post here now and then but don't participate in any of the other boards due to all the arguments.


I just don't think TPTB understood how much J/C meant to some of us. I think it was more important to some of us that it happened, than it would have bothered others if it had. The amount of J/C websites, stories, videos on youtube, communities, all the letters sent in, and all the questions at the conventions, shows there is a genuine love out there for this couple. But we were totally ignored and expected to swallow C/7 in the end as though we would lap up anything. It hurt and even to this day I personally can't watch the finale. C/7 undermined a lot of what I loved about Voyager. It was far more than a "minor complication" to some of us.


But I do think TPTB know the ending was unpopular in some quarters - C/7 was not carried on in the books. So, with it all happening so long ago, and it being unlikley there will ever be a movie, there really is no point in dwelling on it. The ending is what it is and that will never change. So we have to adopt Chakotay's philosophy and take what good we can from it, and that good for me is all the wonderful fanfic it has inspired.


PS I'm sorry if I gave the impression I'm trying to say, or prove, you are wrong. That was not my intention. I totally agree with many of your points and respect your view where we differ.

Drakon128

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Report this Jul. 19 2012, 11:02 am

I blame First Contact was nerfing the Borg.   Much preferred them when they were a force of nature and it wasn't anything personal.  First Contact put a face on them, and I think they took away from the meance.


I didn't mind the Borg as a villian on Voyager.  It was a given once they set the series in the Delta Quadrant.  But I didn't like them using the Queen so much and then making it a personal vendetta between her and Janeway. 

deannastartreker

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Report this Jul. 19 2012, 1:27 pm

no not really. yes they stole seven of nine and yes they were in borg territory but to be honest, is there really anymore borg veiwings in voyager than in tng, or ds9?


and besides maybe they were just running out of ideas for new species but had loads of ideas as to how voyager could piss off the borg so used those instead?!


and my dad moans that theres not enough action in voyager. i keep telling him to wait until theres a borg episode and that will make up for what he calls lack of action in the rest of voyager.


as for the kazon, i really dont care about them. i dont like them and i think they're boring so i ignore as much as i can


The Nightwish devil child speaks all . . . and Finnish

Sehlat123

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Report this Jul. 23 2012, 11:56 am

Quote: Mark II @ Jul. 08 2012, 12:55 pm

>Well, Voyager was it Borg territory, so it makes sense that there were borg around. They were not overused any more than Klingons were overused in every other series.

>

>In fact they didn't make enough, which is good, because, other wise much of the crew of Voyager would have become Borg, as I see it.

>


Wouldn't it be great if there was a new series with new characters you come to know and love, and after 7 seasons, the last episode is everyone being assimilated?



 


 


"Borg. Sounds Swedish."

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