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Why is Archer so awesome?

DATAWORFfantotally

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Report this Jun. 01 2012, 9:53 pm

He had to carry the weight of trek continuity on his shoulders at the same time fix others

Mitchz95

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Report this Jun. 02 2012, 8:47 am

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>Look ... Archer WAS Cool; but; he threatened to blow a man out an air-lock; enough said ; IMO. 

>I WOULD like Archer; but ...yeah, the air-lock incident. 

>


Didn't all the others do similar things as well? The lives of seven billion people were depending on Archer; I think we can forgive him for succuming to the pressure. If Picard or some other 'perfect' person had been leading the mission into the Expanse, I don't think they would have stopped the Xindi in time.


Archer was awesome because he was the most realistic, even more than Sisko.


"The future is in the hands of those who explore... And from all the beauty they discover while crossing perpetually receding frontiers, they develop for nature and for humankind an infinite love." - Jacques Yves Cousteau

RStar17

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Report this Jun. 02 2012, 9:09 am

Archer got his butt kicked more than any two Starfleet captains combined.


The whole airlock thing... really he's made worse choices than that. As for supposedly carrying Trek continuity, Enterprise took continuity, wrapped it in a roll of toliet paper and used it for that.


Mitchz95

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Report this Jun. 02 2012, 9:30 am

Quote: RStar17 @ Jun. 02 2012, 9:09 am

>

>As for supposedly carrying Trek continuity, Enterprise took continuity, wrapped it in a roll of toliet paper and used it for that.

>


Care to elaborate? I thought they did a great job with continuity.


"The future is in the hands of those who explore... And from all the beauty they discover while crossing perpetually receding frontiers, they develop for nature and for humankind an infinite love." - Jacques Yves Cousteau

Nakal

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Report this Jun. 02 2012, 6:34 pm

Why was Archer awesome?


He was tough. He took on the Klingons ( a few times hand to hand). He stood up to the Vulcans. He faced down Shran, and earned his respect.


He was an explorer


He was a diplomat


He paved the way for the coalition


He led a crew that took us to some new places, and re-visited some familiar faces


Enterprise helped to explain, or at least shed light on some things


1.      Klingon physiology


2.      Vulcan history


3.      Andorians


4.      Orions


Continuity ... none of the shows were consistent (even within their own spheres of influence)


 


All the best,Wayne

RStar17

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Report this Jun. 02 2012, 8:25 pm

Quote: Mitchz95 @ Jun. 02 2012, 9:30 am

Quote: RStar17 @ Jun. 02 2012, 9:09 am

>

>

>As for supposedly carrying Trek continuity, Enterprise took continuity, wrapped it in a roll of toliet paper and used it for that.

>

Care to elaborate? I thought they did a great job with continuity.


The Ferengi in Aquisition. Sure they never said they were Ferengi, but you'd think they'd keep a database of alien images so when the 24th century Enterprise-D runs into the Ferengi they're not an unknown. Even Data the walking database found no previous encounters with them. But maybe Archer doesn't think that pirates and thieves are important enough to document. 


The Romulan cloaking devices. They surprised everyone in TOS, but they were used against Archer's Enterprise. Minefield being the prominent example. Even the Suliban use them or a stealth equivilent. You'd think something that tactically important would be worth documenting.


The Borg. Yeah, the Borg. You'd think they'd record a little information about THAT little incident too. Nevermind the absurdity of Picard leaving Borg debris behind in First Contact, even if they don't get the name Borg, a cynbernetic species which assimilates people and technology would seem to be required reading for say the Hansens or even in the data base to be cross-referenced by the El Aurian refugees that found their way to the Federation.


Now it's entirely possible that all these incidents could be writen off if Archer and company don't do something so basic as keep records and Starfleet doesn't do something so basic as backing them up and copying them. Even I don't think they're that dumb though.


Mitchz95

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Report this Jun. 02 2012, 8:34 pm

The Ferengi in Aquisition. Sure they never said they were Ferengi, but you'd think they'd keep a database of alien images so when the 24th century Enterprise-D runs into the Ferengi they're not an unknown. Even Data the walking database found no previous encounters with them.


Maybe the events of "Aquisition" were referenced off-screen.


The Romulan cloaking devices. They surprised everyone in TOS, but they were used against Archer's Enterprise. Minefield being the prominent example. Even the Suliban use them or a stealth equivilent. You'd think something that tactically important would be worth documenting.


That one does have merit. However, keep in mind that nowhere in "Balance of Terror" is it stated that cloaking technology has never been encountered before, only that the form seen in that episode was "theoretically possible".


The Borg. Yeah, the Borg. You'd think they'd record a little information about THAT little incident too. Nevermind the absurdity of Picard leaving Borg debris behind in First Contact, even if they don't get the name Borg, a cynbernetic species which assimilates people and technology would seem to be required reading for say the Hansens or even in the data base to be cross-referenced by the El Aurian refugees that found their way to the Federation.


Again, those events were probably referenced off-screen.


"The future is in the hands of those who explore... And from all the beauty they discover while crossing perpetually receding frontiers, they develop for nature and for humankind an infinite love." - Jacques Yves Cousteau

RStar17

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Report this Jun. 02 2012, 10:16 pm

No they weren't. Data specificly was told to research the Ferengi and found nothing in the Last Outpost. Picard even specificly cites he was the one who made first contact with the Ferengi. I guess you could argue Archer is just incompetent and made no effort to record the identity of his attackers. I mean they only tried to rob his ship. He even sided with Nasuican pirates when an Earth Cargo Ship took one prisoner, so maybe he has a soft spot for criminals.


The only way for the "theory" to work in Balance of Terror is for Kirk and Spock to be incompetent enough NOT to research the tactical abilities of their enemy.


Regeneration specificly contradicts what's said on screen. in Q Who they said they never saw the Borg before. If they had all that information, including a useful bit Phlox foundout that Omicron particales stop Borg nanoprobes, Data would've known and mentioned it. And the Omicron bit was never used. That sure would've been useful in First Contact.


Anyways, here's a good page I found with a much more detailed continuity error list than I can recall from memory.


http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Star_Trek:_Enterprise_alleged_continuity_problems


Mitchz95

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Report this Jun. 03 2012, 7:24 am

No they weren't. Data specificly was told to research the Ferengi and found nothing in the Last Outpost. Picard even specificly cites he was the one who made first contact with the Ferengi.


Maybe Data searched them by name only. Weak, sure, but it wouldn't be the first time he messed up. I seem to recall him saying in "Tin Man" that no natural phenomenon could travel at warp speeds, yet the Enterprise encountered an energy cloud doing just that in "Lonely Among Us" (two years before). He also claimed to have graduated in the "class of `78" yet this was contradicted numerous times in TNG.


I'm not trying to paint Data as incompetant, I'm just saying that nobody's perfect and he's no exception.


I guess you could argue Archer is just incompetent and made no effort to record the identity of his attackers. I mean they only tried to rob his ship.


Record their identities, sure, but maybe not their species. And it didn't sound in the episode like those Ferengi represented the Alliance but were in fact renegades.


He even sided with Nasuican pirates when an Earth Cargo Ship took one prisoner, so maybe he has a soft spot for criminals.


No, he didn't. He tried to prevent the acting captain of the Fortunate from starting an all-out war between the Naussicaans and the ECS.


The only way for the "theory" to work in Balance of Terror is for Kirk and Spock to be incompetent enough NOT to research the tactical abilities of their enemy.


That depends on whether or not the Romulan cloaks in ENT were at all similar in design and whatnot to the ones in "Balance of Terror". Maybe they were prototypes that failed. Maybe they were primitive to the extent that by the 2260s they weren't even considered true cloaks. I could go on and on.


Regeneration specificly contradicts what's said on screen. in Q Who they said they never saw the Borg before. If they had all that information, including a useful bit Phlox foundout that Omicron particales stop Borg nanoprobes, Data would've known and mentioned it. And the Omicron bit was never used. That sure would've been useful in First Contact.


I kind of agree about the omnicron particles - they should have beaten the nanoprobes another way. However, one possible explanation is that the nanoprobes were trying harder than usual to get past Denobulan physiology and accidentally exposed their inter-molecular processors in the process.


As for First Contact with the Borg...here's a list of what we learned about the Borg in "Q Who":


- they're cybernetic


- they're called the Borg (wasn't in Regeneration)


- they have a Collective consciousness (hinted at, but not confirmed in Regeneration)


- they have cube-shaped ships (wasn't in Regeneration)


Granted, Starfleet did have lots of images and such of the Borg from Regeneration. Perhaps they were classified for some reason, and dug out after the incident at J-25. Remember, in "The Best of Both Worlds" Shelby was described as an expert on the Borg. Since the Borg had only been encountered once before that (and she wasn't present) we could infer that she knows that stuff from the Regeneration incident (along with the encounter with the El-Aurians in Generations).


Anyways, here's a good page I found with a much more detailed continuity error list than I can recall from memory.


http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Star_Trek:_Enterprise_alleged_continuity_problems


I'm not going to respond to all of those in a single post. However, I'm sure most of them can be explained away with a little imagination.


"The future is in the hands of those who explore... And from all the beauty they discover while crossing perpetually receding frontiers, they develop for nature and for humankind an infinite love." - Jacques Yves Cousteau

RStar17

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Report this Jun. 03 2012, 8:49 am

Explained away? Good writing shouldn't have to have blatant errors that the fans have to cover the holes. Berman and Braga even flat out said they didn't care much about continuity.


Given Enterprise got canceled after just four seasons, something obviously was wrong with the show. Season 4(with the exception of alien nazis, THAT was horrible, way to just screw up what could've been an epic climax to the Xindi arc) was actually pretty good, but yeah it was too late to save the franchise.


Really I don't think it's unreasonable for a bit of fact checking on a script before you start shooting. But no Berman and Braga just wanted to do a Borg episode, wanted to do a Ferengi episode, etc and to hell with the consequences. Really recycling old villains is just lack of creativity. The epitome of this is the aforementioned alien Nazis in the season 4 pilot.


The Xindi threat was a neat story arc with a lot of original material. My main beef there was it drug on too long, and the ending was literally a facepalm moment.


I'm a bit more kindly disposed towards Enterprise than I was when it first came out, then I gave up on it half way through season 2. But really, with a bit of effort they could have done a lot better. Perhaps it could have lasted a full seven seasons.


Mitchz95

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Report this Jun. 03 2012, 11:56 am

I agree with you on most of that. They should have been a bit more careful with continuity. I'm just saying that there are potential resolutions for most of the errors.


The way I see it, the reason ENT got the axe is that people were getting worn out from fifteen years of constant Trek, and when ENT wasn't amazing from the start they gave up on it more quickly than they would have if it had come five years later. By the time the show got to that point (from around the end of season 3 onward) too many people were gone.


I actually loved Storm Front, space Nazis and all. I think it was the perfect conclusion to the TCW story arc, and a thrilling two-parter all the way.


"The future is in the hands of those who explore... And from all the beauty they discover while crossing perpetually receding frontiers, they develop for nature and for humankind an infinite love." - Jacques Yves Cousteau

wissa

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Report this Jun. 03 2012, 12:39 pm

he looked unusually amazing in his blue space undies


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RStar17

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Report this Jun. 03 2012, 2:04 pm

Rusty, having a difference of opinion and debating it doesn't equate to arguing. If someone on this board were to make me mad I could just make it go away by clicking an X.


Really I didn't like the Temporal Cold War story arc at all. If Voyager didn't beat the time travel horse to death, this did. Voyager and Enterprise make it seem like it's easier to fall back in time accidentally than it is to just warp from one system to another in a straight line. Other than Shadow guy and Daniels screwing with Archer one episode, helping him the next, what was even the point? The sphere builders bit was a nice touch, but even while they're building their Death Star ripoff, they try to time travel into the past anyways? And it's not like it contributed to the story arc other than to show the Reptillians were bad. I'm sure the viewer had a hard time figuring that one out.


As for the space nazis? Really this is done to death too. You can't come up with a credible threat to challenge the good guys with so you just rip off the nazi's or some barbarians or something. Just the ridiculousness of Germans with lasers. Oh and that map of occupied America, come on, did they just forget that Canada entered the war a full two years before the US? If you're going to rip off history at least try and get the details right.


Now to Archer... I can't say I much liked him as a captain, but he had some nice moments. He did really seem to care for his people even if he probably had that cook cleaning up after his dog when he wasn't slaving away in the galley. I'll just leave alone the stupidity of bringing a dog into space, even Janeway didn't try that 200 years later despite the fact she loved her dogs. Archer also just seems borderline insane at times. His need to be involved with every little thing that goes on as if the fact that he's in charge is in doubt. His Vulcanphobia just seems ridiculous at times even if the Vulcans in Enterprise are jerks. 


grigori

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Report this Jun. 03 2012, 5:43 pm

What rules? Archer went out there BEFORE there were rules. His experiences are what led to the rules. He didn't have an entire Starfleet at his back like Kirk, he didn't have lessons in diplomacy and ballroom dancing like Picard. ENT seeks to show us how Starfleet begins to form a code of ethics, and it shows us especially how humans come to be, in so short a time, at the heart of founding the Federation.


Archer and his crew were peacemakers, time and again. The Tellarites and Andorians are rallied against a common threat. Tucker puts the NX-01 right in the heart of battle, and puts to shame societies that have been inter-stellar for a far longer time. ENT brings to light humanity's unique good qualities even as they have to stumble through the unknown with the odds stacked against them.


And we know it can't all go right--there's your continuity for you. Archer is too polite when he first meets the Klingons, then he p's them off and THEN insults their honor when he just keeps escaping. Enemy made. The Vulcans' deeper ties with humaniity are forged when they're forced to rise above nearly a century of feeling superior after Archer is at the heart of reconciling their own religious/political crisis.


I for one liked a Captain who still had the wonder of an explorer, and a physical grittiness, leading his crew into the rough stuff back before that silly rule about Captains having to stay on their butts. I liked a Captain who said "Let's talk" when it was plausible but "Go to hell" when it was more realistic. And I know "I'm gonna knock you on your a$$" isn't Shakespeare, but it does make for more lively TV AND a great drinking game.


Well...I'm here

stovokor2000-A

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Report this Jun. 03 2012, 6:31 pm

Quote: Mitchz95 @ Jun. 02 2012, 8:34 pm

>However, keep in mind that nowhere in "Balance of Terror" is it stated that cloaking technology has never been encountered before, only that the form seen in that episode was "theoretically possible".


which means they have not seen/encountered such tech in the real world, only in theoretical models.


That depends on whether or not the Romulan cloaks in ENT were at all similar in design and whatnot to the ones in "Balance of Terror".


No, it really doesnt.Its irrelevent if the tech was similar or completly different.


the capability to redender them selfs invisiable is whats important here, not how the tech gets the job gone.Kirk and his crew seemed supprised by the ability, which they shouldnt have been if they knew their basic history


Maybe they were prototypes that failed. Maybe they were primitive to the extent that by the 2260s they weren't even considered true cloaks. I could go on and on.


you could go on...........and make no progress with that line of arguments.


 


 


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