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the real reason why the Founders turned Odo to a human

generalgrin

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Report this May. 26 2012, 2:24 am

in the episode "Broken Link" it is said that the Founders wanted to judge Odo and punish him for killing a changeling in an older episode. 


in the end they turned him into a human and let him go. 


in the following episode "Apocolypse Rising" it turned out that while he was in the great link the Founders mislead Odo into thinking they were hiding secrets from him like Gowron being a changeling. in reality they fooled him to think so, so that the Federation will assassinate Gowron. 


so already we know they had a second alterior motive to force him to go the to the great link, other than to be judged. it had to do with their desire to conquer the Alpha Quadrant. 


we also know that Odo later turned back to a changeling thanks to a sick infant changeling (and possibly thanks to the fake Doctor Bashir who was really a founder and might have done something to make it happen)


later the female Founder told Odo they forgave him and invited him to join the founders again. this despite the fact that he was supposedly judged and sentenced to live as a solid. 


so I think it was their plan all along to temporarily turn him to a solid and then back to a changeling. 


my theory is that it was all an experiemnt. I think the founders wanted to use this in order to create infiltrators who could not be detected by any means, to infiltrate the alpha quadrant more effectively.


so they first tried it on Odo, because they viewed him as expendable because he refused to be a Founder and killed other changelings. so they didn't feel guilty on doing a potentially dangerous experiment on him. 


they wanted to see if it will work and if it's possible to turn him back to a changeling again after a while, which indeed worked. 


they knew that the alpha quadrant powers were quickly developing ways to detect their infiltrators. they had blood tests, polaron emitters, devices that prevented changelings from changing shape, genetic tests. they could even use telepaths like Betazoids and Vulcans to detect changelings and so on.


so the Founders realized their ability to infiltrate was greatly limited. so they planned to turn changelings into humanoids (looking like anyone they want, with any DNA they wanted), for an unlimited amount of time. 


they would not have to regenerate, and they would not be detectable by any technology. (remember Bashir said that Odo turned to a human and had the same exact DNA as a normal human).


so with this method they would be able to replace anyone they want permenantly, and no one could ever prove it.  but they also needed a way to know if that changeling could ever return to being a changeling.


so I think that was one of the reasons they replaced Bashir with a changeling, so that he could monitor Odo. and when the opportunity arised with the infant changeling the Bashir-founder probably did something which turned Odo back to a changeling, completing the experiement.


we never know if they indeed used the same method for infiltrating. they only started showing signs of sickness from the section 31 virus in season 7. so in theory in season 6 they could still be using infiltrators. 


I think they probably infiltrated the Romulan government in late season 5. when the Dominion fleet first came through the wormhole, the Romulans showed up to help the Federation and Klingons. a few episodes later they suddenly changed their mind and abandoned the alliance. so it's likely that the Founders influenced the Romulan government, possibly using infiltrators.

stovokor2000-A

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Report this May. 26 2012, 1:28 pm

Quote: generalgrin @ May. 26 2012, 2:24 am

>we also know that Odo later turned back to a changeling thanks to a sick infant changeling (and possibly thanks to the fake Doctor Bashir who was really a founder and might have done something to make it happen)


we cant be sure that the Bashir in that episode was the fake.


my theory is that it was all an experiemnt. I think the founders wanted to use this in order to create infiltrators who could not be detected by any means, to infiltrate the alpha quadrant more effectively.


they knew that the alpha quadrant powers were quickly developing ways to detect their infiltrators. they had blood tests, polaron emitters, devices that prevented changelings from changing shape, genetic tests. they could even use telepaths like Betazoids and Vulcans to detect changelings and so on.


ther blood test/genetic test were completely pointless as the Martok fake proved.


I dont think they ever mentioned telepaths for detection, but the Vulcans are touch telapaths for ther most part.So it wouldnt be to hard to avoid detection with them.


 


 


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RStar17

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Report this May. 26 2012, 3:41 pm

Actually, yes the Bashir in this episode was the Founder.


Bashir was captured in one of the old uniforms and they had switched the the First Contact sytle uniforms in this episode.


I'm not sure about your experiment theory. The Martok changeling already proven they could defeat blood tests. You do raise an interesting point about the Bashir Founder somehow reintegrating the infant changeling into Odo.


I was always skeptical about him letting it die. If anything he'd be more qualified than the real Bashir to treat it. But in hindsight I'm almost sure the writers just came up with "Let's switch Bashir out with a Founder" when they wrote By Inferno's Light.


stovokor2000-A

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Report this May. 26 2012, 6:32 pm

Quote: RStar17 @ May. 26 2012, 3:41 pm

>Actually, yes the Bashir in this episode was the Founder.

>Bashir was captured in one of the old uniforms and they had switched the the First Contact sytle uniforms in this episode.


Actually, you cant say/prove that defintivly.The episodes arent clear enough about the passege of time between them and the uniform issue proves nothing conclusively.


We have seen in past episodes, other characters, Sisko for example, switching to older/different uniforms when going to a different base/starfleet local.


Bashir may have had to do the same thing to travel on the ship that took him to the confrence, or to simplely be there.


 


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RStar17

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Report this May. 26 2012, 7:45 pm

Rapture was the first episode they used the new uniforms. As Bashir is in prison with an old one proves he was captured before that episode. Unless you're suggesting the Dominion just forced him to change clothes or he randomly decided to put on an old one to go to that Medical conference? Absurd at best.


Therefore the Bashir in the Begotten is the Founder being it takes place after the capture and before the real Bashir escapes in By Inferno's Light. The Stardates aren't always given but the episodes are chronological by their airing date.


stovokor2000-A

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Report this May. 26 2012, 8:55 pm

Quote: RStar17 @ May. 26 2012, 7:45 pm

>Rapture was the first episode they used the new uniforms. As Bashir is in prison with an old one proves he was captured before that episode. Unless you're suggesting the Dominion just forced him to change clothes or he randomly decided to put on an old one to go to that Medical conference? Absurd at best.


not to sound rude but...Did you read my post?


What episode the new uniforms started being seen in is irrelevrent.


We have seen Sisko use older uniforms when going to Earth, we have seen that not every ship in the fleet changes to the same uniform aqt the same time.


We have even seen ships in which the crew uses 2 different styles of uniforms [Enterprise D in Generations]


Its not only possible, but very likely that Bashir traveled to the Medical conference on some un-named ship.Its also not only possible, but likely that said un-named ship didnt get the new uniforms yet.If so, its quite likely that it was Mandatory that he change his uniform to present a unified look.


Its also possible that the Medical conference that took place on Meezan IV was in a fedaration base, or fedaration hosted facility in which nits crew had not yet gotten the new uniforms.If so, its quite likely that it was Mandatory that he change his uniform to present a unified look.


Therefore the Bashir in the Begotten can not defintivly be said/proved to have been the Founder 


The Stardates aren't always given but the episodes are chronological by their airing date.


Your half right there.


Stardates arent always given, but no the episodes are NOT allways chronological by their airing date.


For example, season 1, episode "Past Prologue" was intended to be the 4th episode aired.But it was aired early.


Same goes for season 5's "Trials and Tribble-ations" which was moved up a week to deal with sweep's week


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stovokor2000-A

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Report this May. 26 2012, 10:19 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

Quote: /view_profile/ @

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>

>Actually, yes the Bashir in this episode was the Founder.

>Bashir was captured in one of the old uniforms and they had switched the the First Contact sytle uniforms in this episode.

Actually, you cant say/prove that defintivly.The episodes arent clear enough about the passege of time between them and the uniform issue proves nothing conclusively.

We have seen in past episodes, other characters, Sisko for example, switching to older/different uniforms when going to a different base/starfleet local.

Bashir may have had to do the same thing to travel on the ship that took him to the confrence, or to simplely be there.

 

 

I think we can prove Bashir is a changling during episode "The Begotten" at least. 

This is from episode "In Purgatory's Shadow", the episode where we find out Bashir is a changing and the real bashir is in a Domnion prison camp:

KIRA: I'm telling you, he knows exactly who I am. Kirayoshi already recognises me.
DAX: Nerys, the O'Brien's baby is less than a month old. He doesn't recognise his own fingers.
KIRA: He spent seven months inside my belly, listening to my heartbeat, hearing to my voice.

The baby was born during episode "The Begotten".  So less than 30 days seperates episodes "The Begotten" and "In Purgatory's Shadow".

From episode "By Inferno's Light":

O'BRIEN: Four weeks? Are you telling me I've been hanging around with a changeling for over a month?
BASHIR: And you never even suspected it wasn't me?

From episode "Inquisition":

SLOAN: Barrack six?
BASHIR: Yes.
SLOAN: And you were there five weeks?
BASHIR: Thirty seven days, actually.
SLOAN: You're absolutely sure about that?

Since Bashir was kidnapped for over a month and less than a month seperates episodes "The Begotten" and "In Purgatory's Shadow" then that means that Bashir was a changling during episode "The Begotten".

this is evidence I can pretty much accept....althou I have some reservations about Dax's comment about how much time went past.


thank you very much.


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RStar17

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Report this May. 27 2012, 12:04 am

And it's still "his fault" no doubt.


stovokor2000-A

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Report this May. 27 2012, 10:11 am

screw ups


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generalgrin

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Report this May. 27 2012, 10:49 am

I think it's been pretty much agreed upon that the Bashir in "The Begotten" was indeed a changeling. 


That means that there was no way to save that baby-changeling and it was going to die from radiation poisoning no matter what. since "Bashir" would have tried to save it in any way he could including by linking with it (which might have happened off screen).


When the baby changeling died it basically "linked" with Odo, and that somehow turned Odo back to a changeling. 


it was stated in "Things Past" that Odo wasn't really fully human and was still able to "link" with others. so that's how that changeling was able to link with him and be absorbed into his body. 


so I'm guessting all it really took to restore Odo was linking with another changeling again. 


I think the founders always intended to restore Odo, since they apparently "forgave" him later. maybe this incident simply accelerated what they were planning to do anyway. maybe they wanted to keep Odo as a solid during their war to take over the Alpha Quadrant, so that he wouldn't be able to interfear with it by posing as a Founder to the Jem'Hadar and Vorta forces (which indeed happened during the war).


maybe they planned to only restore him after the war was won.


 


I still think what they did to him was not a single incident, since they could have used the same trick for their infiltration schemes.


if they could turn their spies into permenant solids, they'd be able to avoid detection. there would be no way to prove that the spy was really a changeling. (and he'd be able to look like anyone they chose, with any DNA they chose).  


Yes I know they were able to fool the blood tests (by keeping the blood of the original person inside their bodies and releasing it when being tested) but there were other tests being developed which they would not be able to fool and they knew it. like the Polaron emitters that Starfleet developed. it would expose any changeling. 


and the Romulans could have been using that device which prevents changelings from changing form. if it was mass produced on a large scale and working in every room of every ship and base, an infiltrator would be unable to live in such conditions  because of the need to regenerate, and fooling the blood tests would also be more difficult while not being able to shape shift. 


so since the Founders knew all this they may have wanted to turn some of their spies into solids to carry out their missions. 


then when the mission was over the spy only has to link with another changeling to turn back to a changeling. 


I think Odo was the first test they did to see if it worked

miklamar

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Report this May. 27 2012, 1:01 pm

You make some good points, generalgrin.  Maybe the Founders wanted Odo in the "enemy's" camp, so he wouldn't interfere with their own (Dominion) war effort.  And, of course, he might also be a useful "experiment" for them anyway, to help them learn more about occupants of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants and about being solid.


Var Miklama--Zakdorn, engineer. "A sound mind in a FULL body!" "Time, like latinum, is a limited quantity in the galaxy."

Fleet Admiral Braxton

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Report this May. 27 2012, 2:48 pm

Been Around Humans Too Long? Then Again, They Did Forgive Him And Allowed Him Back When He Bailed Them Out. What Does That Tell You?    

RStar17

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Report this May. 27 2012, 4:41 pm

How kind of the Founders. To accept Odo back when he comes bringing the cure to the disease that has them on the cusp of death.


Anime Odo

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Report this May. 28 2012, 10:38 am

Well Doesnt Odo save every one i? I mean he, like ended the War!! ! (part of it). But i guess the founders would have died anyway so never mind. 


 


Oh and i dont like it when Odo's a person it SAD!!!


"I don't believe in luck, but I appreciate the sentiment." - Odo

generalgrin

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Report this May. 28 2012, 11:34 am

Quote: RStar17 @ May. 27 2012, 4:41 pm

>

>How kind of the Founders. To accept Odo back when he comes bringing the cure to the disease that has them on the cusp of death.

>


 


actually they were willing to take him back long before there was any sign of the disease that infected them.


during the Dominion's occupation of DS9 when the female founder came to visit Odo she said "we have forgiven you" and offered him to rejoin them.


when Weyoun told her he thought she was manipulating Odo to prevent him from interfearing with the Dominion's plans she said that's not why she's doing this. she said "bringing Odo home to the great link is more important to us than the Alpha Quadrant itself"

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