Star Trek

Hello all. Just curious as to why people dislike Nemesis so much. Before anyone replies with a one-word answer, I'd like a genuine reason or I'll just assume the real answer is 'because everyone else does'.

I personally really enjoy Nemesis. I'd like to see a Directors cut with some deleted scenes put back in. There's so much about this movie to enjoy. Riker and Troi finally getting married, Guinan making an appearance, the Romulans finally getting a decent movie outing, I also thought Riker referencing Data's whistling from 'Encounter At Farpoint' was a really nice touch for people that had followed it from the start.

The music was fantastic with familiar themes from previous movies tying it all up. The effects were better than almost all the other movies. The story was less riddled with holes than most other movies that are considered 'better' (Trek and non-Trek). I'll admit it has it's bad points. One being continuity. In Tapestry, Picard is shown at the academy with hair, yet when he and Beverly reminisce over a photo, it shows Cadet Picard as bald. Also no real explanation as to why Worf is back on board.

One plus in my book is that someone finally gave the order 'set a collision course' and followed through on it. I loved that scene. Picard in all his bad-assery.

To sum up, it has its fair share of flaws but I don't think it deserves its reputation as the bad movie the people seem to see it as. I declare this can of worms open.

I don't think Star Trek Nemesis is a bad Star Trek movie at all. It's easily the second-best TNG film (which is not saying much, since Generations and Insurrection were really sub-par Trek movies). 

I think some of the "cons" I'd come up with would be:

1. It's darker and a little more grim than I'd like. 

2. The motivation of the villian is all over the map. What does he want? He wants to free the Remans? He wants to take down Romulus for cursing him with the life he's led. He wants to kill Picard becuase...um...I don't know...he's jealous. He wants to get Picard and take his blood. He wants to destroy the Federation because...ummm...I don't know...it's fun to blow things up. 

3. The scene on Kolarus III is a mess, especially with the natives attacking the Argo. Prime directive anyone? Also, couldn't the tricorders and Enterprise sensors have alerted the crew that 15 Mad Max dunebuggies armed with machine guns were headed their way? Groan.....

4. The wedding was sappy-crappy. Why does Brent Spiner insist on singing in these movies. Stop already.

5. Fanboy wank-fest stupidity: Janeway making a cameo. the Scimitar having a tactical manifest that sounds like a hyperactive 3rd grader made it up, etc.  

Now, MOST fans will complain about this stuff...but it doesn't bother ME at all:

1. How could we not know that there was another Soong-type android out there? (I don't know...maybe it was the same information black hole that the existance of David Marcus and Sybok fell into!)

2. Data dies! Oh no! (What's the big deal? The series was over anyway. Data dying is the perfect ending for the arc of that character.)

3. The idea of "inventing" the Remans. Even thought there was no canon evidence, most fans thought Remus was a twin planet that was simply part of the Romulan Empire.

I don't know...it wasn't bad, but it wasn't really good either. I enjoy it, though. It's actually my wife's favorite Star Trek movie...so who knows?

I just felt it was a good story, but a bad film.It would have made a better episode.

I don't hate any of the Star Trek movies.  Nemesis is my least favorite of the films, but it's still watchable and fun if I'm in the right mood.  My only issues with Nemesis is that it feels rushed and like the cast really didn't know what they were doing with the story.  Like the movie couldn't find the voice it wanted to use to tell the story they were trying to tell.

in star trek I've discovered there is always a group that will hate something.  Doesn't matter what version of trek it is.

What Vger23 said, not like we ever covered this topic before.

I dont like it cause Data died!! so unfair!!

I don't hate Nemesis, but I think the principal objection would be that it just isn't a very good movie.

The only thing I couldn't stand about it was the scene on Kolarus III. How the heck does something like that happen. The only justification I can think of was that having an (admittedly primitive, compared to Data, Lore, and their "mother") Soong-type android would have contaminated their culture more than having a few extraterrestrials show up for a short while. Otherwise, I thought the story was intrigueing about Shinzon, and what it says about the human experience in general.

Nemesis has a bunch of flaws. Most of them are minor things. How the Remans, this slave race, could build their super death ship, under the Romulans is a good question. Why they'd follow Shinzon at all, no matter how good he was at fighting it another one. To say nothing of the "race bred for war' seem incapable of basic marksmanship. B4 is found and Lore isn't mentioned once. Last I checked they took him apart too.

A thing that annoyed me about this movie. Janeway making Admiral and issuing Picard orders. In my opinion she isn't qualified to bring him his Earl Grey, nonetheless give him orders. Then again she does fit the trend that Admirals tend to be jerks.

But as I said, those are minor things and not deal breakers. Really the main flaw of the movie is Shinzon himself. I mean what a lame villain. Picard is established in previous episodes of TNG to have had hair. Having Shinzon shave his just makes him look like a disgruntled Neo-Nazi. So he lures Picard over to steal his DNA...? Okay, whatever but he wants to get to know Picard first. I can get that sorta. But what's up with the mind rape scenes with Troi? All they do is just establish Shinzon is a jerk, and serve no purpose beyond that. As if targetting Earth for extinction didn't accomplish that. Speaking of targetting Earth... again, why are the Remans going along with this? "Hey we're free from our former oppressors... let's go kill -their- archenemies." Really, they shouldn't care one way or another about the Federation, most slaves target their former masters when they rebel. So they should be using their technobabble doomsday ship they built out or rocks and pickaxes on Remus against the Romulans. 

The B4 treachery was predictable, but done well enough I suppose. Nothing to be said about the escape sequence after Picard is kidnapped except it's nice eye candy, though as I said it makes the race "bred for war" look silly and incompetent. So this brings us to the battle itself, which people often claim is the highlight of the movie. Don't get me wrong it's a nice eye candy battle, though the ambush in the green comm jamming nebula should have been the thing Data would see coming from a mile away. Maybe linking with B4 dumbed him a little. But really, we saw bigger and better battles on DS9. People say it's nice to see the Enterprise E do it's thing... but we saw that in First Contact, we saw that in Insurrection.

Now Shinzon is kicking the crap out of the Enterprise, with a brief interruption from the Romulans. On a brief note, I did like Troi using her telepathy to help Worf find the Scimitar. So anyways Shinzon sends a team over to capture Picard since he's dying and needs to technobabble steal his DNA. So they beam their assault team.... several decks down away from the bridge. Then the very next scene, the Scimitar swings around and blasts a hole in the bridge. You're sure lucky Picard didn't die there Shinzon. Which leads me to the conclusion. The Remans were just dumb.

I did like the crash scene for a couple reasons. One Picard looks around the bridge and when he decides he needs to crash the ship he picks Troi to pilot it. Yeah, she's got the kamikazee manuver down well as we learned from Generations. And it was nicely done, even if Shinzon really should have seen it coming. The audience sure did.

Now Picard just has to go stop this reaction himself... he doesn't give any good reason, but heck, I guess he just wanted to be an action hero and the crew knew better than to argue with the old man. Though on a side note if he sent Data instead, he probably would have lived. Anyways Shinzon did a nice Uruk-hai scene after he impaled himself and why not? He was looking like one at the point.

Which brings us to Data's sacrifice. This could have been an epic moment, as easily as Spock dying... with just a bit of decent writing. As it is, just kinda seemed anti-climatic. You think either Picard or Data would have brought some explosives along instead of just planning to use a phaser. Would have made a lot more sense but no Data has to die, so his logic circiuts were left behind and he phasers the Scimitar. Alternatively, with a bit of good writing there could have been a real good sacrifice. Picture Picard being captured and about to have his DNA sucked out, Data busts in, phasers a few guards, too many to beat so he plants the teleporter badge on Picard and blasts the death core(convienently located on the bridge).

Instead one's just left with a wanting feeling. Data's gone and it's sad, but it could have been so much more... heroic. As previously mentioned this is the 2nd best of the TNG movies, but yeah, Generations and Insurrection didn't set the bar high. This one definitely broke the rule of the even numbered movies being great.

What RStar17 said!

What RStar17 and Vger23 said.

While watching, the whole time it depressed me, except hersay there and here.

watching the Enterprise ram into the other ship made me sick

Data dieing, nothing left but the fact that he was there then he wasn't

then that maudelen ending of B4 trying to hum/sing or whatever

the fact that you are raising your eyebrow up slightly

and that know you are giggling

and i think that was a slight smile on your behalf.

Nemesis has a bunch of flaws. Most of them are minor things.

Agreed.

How the Remans, this slave race, could build their super death ship, under the Romulans is a good question.

Yes, it is a good question. I suppose Shinzon's people could have had it built in secret, but it'd be hard to hide it from the Romulans.

Alternatively, maybe the Scimitar was a Romulan ship that was constructed using Reman slave labour, and then the Remans took it over when the Senate was assassinated.

Why they'd follow Shinzon at all, no matter how good he was at fighting it another one.

I imagine the same way that Hitler came to power in Germany in the 1930s.

To say nothing of the "race bred for war' seem incapable of basic marksmanship.

The same is true of the Klingons. Presumably even the greatest of warriors can't overcome plot armour.

B4 is found and Lore isn't mentioned once. Last I checked they took him apart too.

That is odd, but it can be overlooked.

A thing that annoyed me about this movie. Janeway making Admiral and issuing Picard orders. In my opinion she isn't qualified to bring him his Earl Grey, nonetheless give him orders. Then again she does fit the trend that Admirals tend to be jerks.

I think she was qualified. She got Voyager and most of its crew home from the Delta Quadrant in 7 years, crapping all over the Borg in the process. You have to admit, that's pretty impressive.

But what's up with the mind rape scenes with Troi? All they do is just establish Shinzon is a jerk, and serve no purpose beyond that.

Agreed. I cringe every time that scene plays.

Speaking of targetting Earth... again, why are the Remans going along with this? "Hey we're free from our former oppressors... let's go kill -their- archenemies." Really, they shouldn't care one way or another about the Federation, most slaves target their former masters when they rebel.

They did...or did you miss the assassination of the Romulan Senate, and the frequent references to Shinzon being the new leader of the Empire?

As for why the Remans helped him attack Earth...they wanted to be part of Shinzon's great victory against the Federation. He was their Praetor, after all.

The B4 treachery was predictable, but done well enough I suppose. Nothing to be said about the escape sequence after Picard is kidnapped except it's nice eye candy, though as I said it makes the race "bred for war" look silly and incompetent. So this brings us to the battle itself, which people often claim is the highlight of the movie. Don't get me wrong it's a nice eye candy battle, though the ambush in the green comm jamming nebula should have been the thing Data would see coming from a mile away. Maybe linking with B4 dumbed him a little. But really, we saw bigger and better battles on DS9. People say it's nice to see the Enterprise E do it's thing... but we saw that in First Contact, we saw that in Insurrection.

Pretty much agree with all of that. Though I think the battle scenes were pretty good - they had a much more epic, dramatic feel than most of the DS9 battles.

On a brief note, I did like Troi using her telepathy to help Worf find the Scimitar.

Yes, that was cool.

So anyways Shinzon sends a team over to capture Picard since he's dying and needs to technobabble steal his DNA. So they beam their assault team.... several decks down away from the bridge.

That's because that's where the Enterprise's shields were weakest. Data (or was it Worf) reported that the shields had failed on that deck just a few seconds before the Remans beamed over.

Then the very next scene, the Scimitar swings around and blasts a hole in the bridge. You're sure lucky Picard didn't die there Shinzon. Which leads me to the conclusion. The Remans were just dumb.

True. Shinzon probably vaporized one of his tactical officers after that happened.

I did like the crash scene for a couple reasons. One Picard looks around the bridge and when he decides he needs to crash the ship he picks Troi to pilot it. Yeah, she's got the kamikazee manuver down well as we learned from Generations. And it was nicely done, even if Shinzon really should have seen it coming. The audience sure did.

Technically the crash in Generations wasn't Troi's fault, but whatever.

Now Picard just has to go stop this reaction himself... he doesn't give any good reason, but heck, I guess he just wanted to be an action hero and the crew knew better than to argue with the old man.

He felt it was his responsibility to stop Shinzon. Also, he knew it would probably be a suicide mission and Picard would never order somebody to do that.

Anyways Shinzon did a nice Uruk-hai scene after he impaled himself and why not? He was looking like one at the point.

Yeah, that was kind of gross.

You think either Picard or Data would have brought some explosives along instead of just planning to use a phaser.

I don't think they had time to grab explosives. They barely did it as it is.

Picture Picard being captured and about to have his DNA sucked out, Data busts in, phasers a few guards, too many to beat so he plants the teleporter badge on Picard and blasts the death core(convienently located on the bridge).

Nah, I think the current one works pretty well. That look on his face as he fires...I get chills every time. And I think a "go-down-fighting" kind of death would be much worse. The Scimitar would explode and the audience would go "okay, he'll be back any second now thanks to some technobabble escape..." instead of the dramatic "knows-this-is-it-and-doesn't-care" death.

As previously mentioned this is the 2nd best of the TNG movies, but yeah, Generations and Insurrection didn't set the bar high. This one definitely broke the rule of the even numbered movies being great.

I actually really liked Generations. It's about on-par with FC.