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Nemesis hate

Vger23

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Report this May. 24 2012, 5:23 pm

Quote: Matthias Russell @ May. 24 2012, 8:01 am

>

>I for one enjoy something less if its continuity doesn't work.  Just like a movie sucks if there is no continuity within its 2 hours of screen time, a franchise is harmed if it doesn't maintain continuity within its entirety.

>The problem with Star Trek is maintaining continuity with all the stuff from the 60s and with early TNG before they had better editorial controls in place. 

>The weight of continuity also has not harmed Trek.  The authors of the books these days have been able to tell amazing stories while respecting everything that has come beofre as well as current books.  In fact, I think the books are presently telling better tales than television did.  the primary differnce?  The creativity and quality of the writers.

>


 


See, I disagree on this point (and it's mainly a matter of taste). 


 


I think the novels are primarily based on continuity. Most novels seem to be "lets fit as many crossovers, canon references, in-jokes, and quasi-sequel points as possible into one 275 page book." 


I can't remember the last time I saw or read a novel that didn't rely heavily on the adventures of Julian Bashir and Harry Kim looking into the naughty goings-on of the Remans while Ambassador Spock and Tuvok try to help after being dropped off by Riker and the USS Titan. 


There's really very little ORIGINAL story telling there. It's just re-hashing and re-combining things that have happened in past series or movies, intermixing characters, and nodding / winking shamelessly at the hardcore fanbase. "See...look! We put Pakleds in this book....remember THAT episode!?"


Sometimes it works...sometimes it feels like horrendous and inexcusable fanwank that would never have even been written if it weren't for the fan obsession with sticking within the same tired and bloated universe.


Star Trek's beauty used to be in its simplicity. Not in its complexity.  


I AM KEE-ROCK!!

mr.atoz

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Report this May. 25 2012, 12:58 pm

I thought nemesis was the worst of the TNG movies and a bad way to end the TNG.  I liked that the romulans were featured since they were not featured in any other movies but overall I think it was too dark for a sendoff. Had they done another movie as opposed to the prequel (which I liked) i might have thought better of nemesis. although i understand, i did not like data killed off.  I also did not love the story and thought the end could have been much better.  perhaps picard having that drink with the romulan commander instead of her being killed, or maybe show the seeds of an alliance with the romulans. 


what really surprises me is all the hate for insurrection. I thought that was a good movie. it was much lighter than nemesis and the characters really got to be themselves. Had they ended after that, I would have been ok with it.

Matthias Russell

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Report this May. 25 2012, 3:57 pm

Vger, when is the last time you read any of the novels?  I agree that was the case in the 90s, and with some of the current writers but for the most part, the current writers have respected continuity. 


The Titan books, especially those of Christopher Bennett are full of interesting science fiction concepts and moral conundrums. If you want to explore a REALLY strange new world, read Over a Torrent Sea.


David Mack writes really dynamic novels and has some really rich original characters.  His Destiny trilogy was recently republished for its popularity.  I think you in particular would enjoy the Vanguard series which he spearheaded and just concluded.  They are 8 books (I think) that must be read in order.  They have TOS cross overs and help provide some back story, but for the most part it is a story of redemption and moral ambiguity that reads liek DS9 in the TOS times with original characters and a very interesting alien antagonist.


In fact, i would recommend reading Vanguard over playing STO.


Pooneil

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Report this May. 25 2012, 11:10 pm

Vger23 is actually my evil alter-ego. He (or she, or whatever) says everything I'm too polite and mild-mannered to express myself. I imagine he has green skin and glowing red eyes. I am but a dim-witted and spineless reflection of Vger23's intellect.


A few Trek novels are pretty good. I enjoyed a couple of Christopher Bennett's books, except they were so overloaded with continuity nods they actually required footnotes. (I'm not kidding. They're on his website, with page numbers and everything).


One negative effect of canon -- whether it's Nemesis, DS9, or Enterprise -- is that it makes the Trek universe a smaller place. It carefully delineates the boundaries of the Federation and exposits all the little details until there's nothing left to create and no more room for imagination. Space is meant to be a playground of limitless storytelling potential. Crowding it with alien empires and complex chronologies leaves precious little room for space amoebae and doomsday machines.


Make space big again: dump canon.


 

Vger23

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Report this May. 26 2012, 6:44 am

Quote: Pooneil @ May. 25 2012, 11:10 pm

>

>Vger23 is actually my evil alter-ego. He (or she, or whatever) says everything I'm too polite and mild-mannered to express myself. I imagine he has green skin and glowing red eyes. I am but a dim-witted and spineless reflection of Vger23's intellect.

>A few Trek novels are pretty good. I enjoyed a couple of Christopher Bennett's books, except they were so overloaded with continuity nods they actually required footnotes. (I'm not kidding. They're on his website, with page numbers and everything).

>One negative effect of canon -- whether it's Nemesis, DS9, or Enterprise -- is that it makes the Trek universe a smaller place. It carefully delineates the boundaries of the Federation and exposits all the little details until there's nothing left to create and no more room for imagination. Space is meant to be a playground of limitless storytelling potential. Crowding it with alien empires and complex chronologies leaves precious little room for space amoebae and doomsday machines.

>Make space big again: dump canon.

>


 


Haha! Very nice!


I actually really like Bennett. I read "Ex Machina" a few years ago and thought it was very well done. He really captured the tone of the post-TMP era perfectly. 


I've read a few novels lately. The Typhon Pact series is just as I've described how I feel about the novels. The Titan books are as well. The only book I've read that I REALLY enjoyed was the "Mere Anarchy" anthology. That was an original, engaging, totally new Star Trek experience. It didn't rely on empires and intergalactic intrigue. It didn't need crossovers from various crews. It was just a very good character-driven scifi story with a nice blend of adventure and action. 


I agree with your points on the impact of canon. I think it's a matter of taste. I think some people believe the more you have of it, the more you can tie things together and make it all seem real. To me, it's just a suffocating noose. It seems like the more canon you have, the more you simply try to pull multiple elements from that canon to create a jigsaw puzzle of a story. I literally view the process as this:


 


Fun Characters We Can Crossover With:


1. Old McCoy


2. Scotty


3. Ambassador Spock


4. Captain Riker


5. Admiral Janway


6. Seven of Nine


7. Tuvok


8. Dax


9. Quark


10. Worf


Cool Plot Elements We Can Leverage From The Past:


1. Picard and Beverly potential romance


2. Picard having been assimilated by the Borg


3. The Battle of Wolf 359


4. The Dominion War


5. The Shinzon Romulan Coup


6. Soong-Type Androids


 


General Themes and Plot Devices


1. Intergalactic Intrigue


2. War or Avoiding War


3. Sequelizing Existing Episodes


4. Characters From Seperate Series Working Together


5. Stories that Span The Various Timeframes (ENT, TOS, TNG)


 


And then the author just literally picks 1-2 of those things from each category and VOILA...the template for a standard Star Trek novel!!


 


It's like "storytelling by number..." literally.


 


I liked the old days (I'm talking late 80's to early 90's) when the books were literally just extended original episodic adventures...and not these 4-5 book series with mix-and-match plot elements where if you haven't read others in the series you have no frigging idea what's going on or who's who. 


I AM KEE-ROCK!!

OtakuJo

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Report this Jun. 02 2012, 10:46 pm

Not sure but it doesn't look that way.


http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Harry_Kim


 


I find that some stories (like Nemesis) that people react to quite badly at first, many tend to temper their opinions as the distance of time leads them to realise it wasn't that bad...


I find that the things that fans have demarcated as "no go areas" for new stories leaves precious little room for creativity. Seriously -- no new story is ever going to please everyone. Perhaps it's just time we all reconcile ourselves to that fact.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

RStar17

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Report this Jun. 02 2012, 11:18 pm

Of course not. But that doesn't excuse easily avoidable errors just because the writers are lazy or inept. I wrote a page long post on the subject earlier in this thread so feel free to read that.


Cap.Marty.D.Young

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Report this Jun. 19 2012, 10:36 pm

I loved Nemesis, evil Picard clone Shinzon, Remans, possibly one of the more menacing aliens I've seen in Trek, The Scimitar which is a super weapon, and the crew of the Enterprise E at their finest, Romulans actually coming to the rescue, the Troi/Riker wedding, The discovery of B4, and the loss of Data, real Trek history.


Never drink with your enemies! Well, maybe just one round...

AtoZ2

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Report this Jun. 21 2012, 5:57 am

I think it would have played better with canned laughter piped in...still, out side of a handful of stiff diehard fans, who would you get to watch it????


The movie sucked, get over it.

Hayesimus

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Report this Jul. 05 2012, 1:29 pm

First Contact is my favorite film overall from The Next Generation bunch. Nemesis has many of my favorite scenes but not as an overall movie. Most of the movie felt like they'd play a scene and have to explain to us that it was suspensful or important... rather than just giving us a well written scene that we could feel for ourselves. Firstly, the movie opening up on romulus was pretty cool but I think the turning to stone part was pretty dumb. They should've just melted away or something. I mean turning to stone? Really?


 


Then there is that awful fade to Picard's face... That's the worst transition betweens scenes I've ever seen! I think they spent too much time on the wedding reception. It'd didn't seem to mesh well. They should've had wesley and guinan saying something rather than Picard and having to hear data sing. Honestly they should have just had them walking down the aisle. That would have been better. And less talking. And it should've been on the enterprise in "ten forward" then it wouldn't be so weird how the story jumps from earth to romulus.


 


Delete the whole "other data" aspect of the movie. Every single movie has focused on data. I just don't care anymore. It wasn't very creative to do the Data's brother thing for the hundreth time...


 


They should've had a better villain. Originally they were toying with the idea of versions of our people from an alternate reality. This would have been a better idea on many levels. For one, it wouldn't have been a retarded data. It would have just been a Data from another universe. Second, Picards alternate would have been played by Patrick Stewart. So the acting would have been better. And maybe we could see our characters stepping out of their boring roles for some excitement. Imagine a battle with an alternate reality enterprise. i'm thinking one heavily modded like the all good things enterprise, either galaxy or sovereing class. They could have a big battle with federation ships fighting each other. But... if they were gonna do it the way they did, they should've used the scorpion attack shuttles to fight at the end when the scimitar was damaged... I mean that would have been impressive to see.


 


And again with data's death, I just didn't feel anything. They wanted so bad for it to mean something. But it didn't. If data had just died, people wouldn't be standing there in shock. They burst into tears. I just didn't buy it. It was lame. And the ending with B4 singing... who would have ever seen that coming. It was just lazy writing. I knew from the moment we saw b4 that data was going to transfwer his mind to him and then die. It was completely predictable.


 


Things I liked... though the story sucked mostly, the production values are the best we've ever seen on a star trek movie. (at the time) The enterprise e has never looked more real. Makes insurrection's cgi look dated. Loved the battle scenes at the end.


 


But I will say that I don't get the Insurrection hate around here. To be honest, the more I watch it, the more I like it. It may seem small scale compared to the other movies but it is still enjoyable.


 


Generations is probably the weakest of the tng movies but even that one is visually pleasing. The special effects are great, except the saucer crash. Am I the only one that thinks they should have done a better job on the main shuttlebay? it looks nothing like the other models... lol

JK1701

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Report this Jul. 13 2012, 9:37 am

I guess I'm more of the action Star Trek fan then most people. The movies that I've found to be the best in my opinion are the ones that have the best fight scenes and action sequences. That's one of the reasons I really like Nemesis. I can see where everyone that has posted is coming from, talking about plot points and things that to them made no sense. But I guess I don't always read into things like everyone else does. I enjoyed the movie for what it was. An action-packed send off to a great franchise. Data's death was just as poignant to me as Spock's death in Star Trek II because he was sacrificing himself for the people that he had come to care about, even during the times in his existence when he was incapable of caring. Shinzon was just a madman who wanted to destroy Picard from jealousy over the life that he felt he was cheated out of. Riker and Troi's wedding was long overdue, as was Riker's promotion to captain.


 


Was B4 the greatest idea? Admittedly, no. It did kind of reek of Lore and redoing something that consumed a few episodes of the series. But I did feel they worked him into the story well, and at the end when he started singing was when I lost it and started crying over Data's death the first time I sa the movie.


 


I also caught the "bald cadet Picard" thing, and I agree that was a stupid mistake on the writers part. Also, while I enjoyed Tom Hardy's performance in the movie, and felt there were plenty of similarities between him and Patrick Stewart, you could tell he shaved his head and wasn't naturally bald, and also his lips were completely different and much larger than Stewarts. The illusion was there, but it just wasn't complete.


 


The mind rape scenes, while perhaps not great story-movers, were an extension of Shinzon's fascination with Troi, which was established at the scene where they all first met. It also showed Shinzon'n mental instability in the midst of his peaceful overtures, and then after he was revealed to be the villain, it was just one more reason to hate him. And it also led up to the scene of Troi helping Worf locate the Scimitar, which was completely awesome.


And, was it just me, or did anyone else notice Gates Mcfadden sporting a mustache in some of here scenes? She really needed a wax before they sttarted filming.


Ahh, Kirk, my old friend. Do you know the Klingon proverb which tells us revenge is a dish that is best served cold? It's very cold....in space.

deannastartreker

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Report this Jul. 20 2012, 2:38 am

i like nemesis, but i can see how other people dislike it


yes its dark, filled with flaws and very confusing, but its a film! to all haters i say, STOP THINKING AND TRYING TO PICK IT APART AND JUST WATCH IT! ITS A FILM, YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO WATCH IT NOT POKE AND PRODD IT!


The Nightwish devil child speaks all . . . and Finnish

deannastartreker

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Report this Jul. 20 2012, 2:39 am

i like nemesis, but i can see how other people dislike it


yes its dark, filled with flaws and very confusing, but its a film! to all haters i say, STOP THINKING AND TRYING TO PICK IT APART AND JUST WATCH IT! ITS A FILM, YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO WATCH IT NOT POKE AND PRODD IT!


The Nightwish devil child speaks all . . . and Finnish

Khaaan!!!!

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Report this Jul. 21 2012, 2:16 pm

I did not like nemesis. Having said that there are some good character moments in the film. My problem was with the primary plot. The villains were lame, their motivations were unclear. The plot made little sense. Dunebuggies really? Why not just use the shuttle? Wtf? A retarded android? Wtf! Haha. I Forgive them for this film but I think Stuart baird did a lousy job overall.

"Ten thousand dollars for me by myself. For that you get the head, the tail, the whole damn thing."

Cap.Marty.D.Young

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Report this Jul. 22 2012, 11:07 am

I loved the movie, then again, I love all things Trek. I thought the dunebuggy was cool. And the villains motives were to destroy Starfleet and the Earth, obviously. 


Never drink with your enemies! Well, maybe just one round...

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