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do u accept evolution

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Created by: Justsomeguy

OtakuJo

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POSTS: 16362

Report this May. 19 2012, 12:23 am

Quote: DammitJim6200 @ May. 18 2012, 11:39 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ May. 18 2012, 7:11 pm

Quote: DammitJim6200 @ May. 18 2012, 4:08 pm

>

>

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>1. What "physical basis" are you looking for ? you want God to swoop down from heaven on a white horse carrying a bolt of LIGHTNING ?

>2. we can go to the Bible and find people, places and things that actually existed..

>3. Evolution concepts may change every10 years or with a new fossil discovery.

>

1. Pretty much. Yeah.

2. Sorry to disappoint, but many texts are based on places and contain events that are true -- that doesn't mean the whole thing is true.

3. Yes, our knowledge of the patterns and the history changes, but not the basic probability of evolution itself.

1. Sorry, Otakujo, God dosen't have time to play with us, he's made his presence known in other ways, on a clear night look up at the stars and you can see his works.

2.Many places and things in ancient times are known to occur and has been proven, though written in different languages, those people and places in the bible did exist, for example,Tacitus, a Roman historian who lived during the latter part of the first century C.E wrote: "Christus( latin for Christ)from whom the name Christian had it's origin ) suffered the extreme penalty of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus."

3. Evolution has not one but many theories that are still being debated. 


1. You asked me once what it would take to make me believe that god is real, and that's basically it. I have never said that it is impossible. The difference, however, is that I'm not trying to convince you that your god is not real -- You can draw whatever conclusions you like, but you still seem determined to convince everyone else. I'm saying the evidence is far too weak for that.
And besides, he's supposed to be all-powerful. He has all the time in the world -- literally. If he really, and I mean really, demands that everyone should believe in them, then that's exactly what he would have to do. Otherwise, one can only assume that it's not that big a deal whether each individual believes or worships, or what. If he doesn't need us then why would it matter whether we worship him or not?


2. Yes, there is a very good chance that many events in Jesus' life were historically true. (Although Christos is technically a Greek term, not Latin, and was applied to several other heroes before Jesus -- Heracles being the most prominent example.) However, it does not follow from that point that the assertions made in the Bible regarding natural science and creation &c. are also true. I could point to any number of books that contain historical people, events and places. Tacitus was a halfway decent historian but his writing about Jesus does not affect the natural sciences. Equally, I could point to the example of Herodotus. Much of what Herodotus wrote was true, and his work is classed as history, but an equally great part of what he wrote was also either mistaken or fictional.


But in any case, neither of the above two points has any real bearing on the arguments for/against evolution.


3. When a new fossil is discovered, the general response is to fit it into the evolutionary timeline. In the vast majority of cases, this can be done pretty easily -- Whale fossils in the Sahara with back legs still attached, Australopithicene skeletons in Africa, which is also where genetic studies confirm our ancestors would have come from... (and one of the major reasons that we have not found a "missing link" between human and chimp is that 6 million years ago, the climate simply wasn't right for the development of fossils.)


If any discovery particularly shifts our perception of prehistory, it is generally only the minor details that change (genetic evidence of Cro Magnon/Neandertal hybridisation, out of Africa theory -- whereas Homo Erectus finds led paleontologists to believe that human origins might have been in Asia, structural similarities between dinosaurs and birds... etc.) None of these have significantly altered the validity of evolution as a theory, and if anything they are far more likely to strengthen it.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

entropyman

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 127

Report this May. 19 2012, 2:24 pm

RIF, actually I was not refering to your comments, but those suggested by Cap.MartyDYoung when he cited the fact we no longer live in caves and hunt with spears as evidence of evolution. Apology accepted, sir. As per your suggestion, I dug a little deeper (I'm counting on you to let me know if I should go even deeper) and found a fossil called 'Ida' whose discovery was published and trumpeted around the world in May of 2009 with books and a TV special as the 'missing link' (yes, I said missing link- their terminology, not mine). A mere 5 months later, this grand discovery was debunked and deemed "as far from the monkey-ape-human ancestry as could be" (quotes from Erik Seiffert of Stony Brook University, NY if anyone needs to know) In fact, Ida, as it turns out is a skeleton of a 47 million year old cat-like creature. The author of the original claim, Jorm Hurum said he welcomed the new analysis. Please let me know if I should look somewhere else for proof as I'm always seeking the truth. I hope you don't misunderstand my intentions here. I'm not saying I'm a strict creationist or anything. I too read text books as Ozy claims to do, It's enjoyable to me, as are all of you people who are providing this stimulating conversation. Please continue to espouse your beliefs and if I'm wrong, I won't be afraid to admit that.

entropyman

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 127

Report this May. 19 2012, 3:41 pm

Agreed. By the way, I hate the very dogma you cited- it's been a roadblock to many a person seeking God. As far as scientific research goes, I'm all for it no matter what truths it reveals, however there are people from all walks of life who have agendas other than the truth and we must be ever viligant that we don't blindly accept anything in the name of religion or science or anything else for that matter. You're right of course, there is so much we don't know. I do know however, that we totally agree on two things: the Beatles are the greatest rock band ever and TOS is the best of Trek.

CaptShumar

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POSTS: 25

Report this May. 19 2012, 3:49 pm

I am a man of Faith--I know it's that's a dirty word these days--but I still accept the theory of evolution as a likely and logical scientific theory.  Just cause science explains how God's miracles may have worked, does not take away from their glory

k168mitchell

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 8

Report this May. 19 2012, 5:16 pm

well with out evolution we would all still be bangin rocks together and useing clubs,man wouldnt know wat to do and would never survive.evolution is a fact and NO  god can say that.besides look around you,the person next to you dosent want to beatyouwith aclub,no  they want to shoot you with a gun .evolution.we all live it but some refuse to believe it


 

k168mitchell

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 8

Report this May. 19 2012, 5:16 pm

well with out evolution we would all still be bangin rocks together and useing clubs,man wouldnt know wat to do and would never survive.evolution is a fact and NO  god can say that.besides look around you,the person next to you dosent want to beatyouwith aclub,no  they want to shoot you with a gun .evolution.we all live it but some refuse to believe it


 

k168mitchell

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 8

Report this May. 19 2012, 5:17 pm

well with out evolution we would all still be bangin rocks together and useing clubs,man wouldnt know wat to do and would never survive.evolution is a fact and NO  god can say that.besides look around you,the person next to you dosent want to beatyouwith aclub,no  they want to shoot you with a gun .evolution.we all live it but some refuse to believe it


 

k168mitchell

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 8

Report this May. 19 2012, 5:20 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>awesome joe  couldnt have said any better

>With so much hard physical evidence , you'd have to be an idiot to deny there is a long (millions of billions of years long) process biological evolution at work.

>BUT there is NO evidence it is being engineered by some supernatureal diety, it os random and the only controlling factors are time and gradual envirnmental changes over geologial time spans. Sorry, but Intelligent Design is not science but creationism in new clothes and it's foolish to believe in it.

>

OtakuJo

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 16362

Report this May. 19 2012, 5:28 pm

Quote: k168mitchell @ May. 19 2012, 5:17 pm

>

>well with out evolution we would all still be bangin rocks together and useing clubs,

>


Actually no we wouldn't. We probably wouldn't even have reached the stage of complex single-cell organisms, and there would be no such thing as humans - that's for sure. You're thinking of technological progress, maybe.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

k168mitchell

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 8

Report this May. 19 2012, 5:29 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>DUDE FREAKIN RELIGON  has been used by the powers that be since the dawnof time,back in the day u were killd for believing different than say any religous order,science gives us the tools to dispell all the bs,ur long winded reply proves that religous fanatics will do and say anything to interject themselvs into our lives  wanted or not.so when the next fanatic rises up and demands we all bow down to some unseen so called god and gts people to listen  then u might think diffrently,all religons use the name of god as ther battle cry while ther murddering innocent people,might ouhgt to read ur history again and again

>Entropyman;  I am really not at all certain that there IS a 'right' or a 'wrong' answer to this question...at least not one that will be within our collectrive grasp in the foreseeable future.  THIS may actually be the entire point of continuing to discuss the subject at all.  It's a given that none of us will very likely change our minds (although I did, just not in the direction you'd like to have seen!), but isn't the whole concept utterly amazing to ponder?!

>If you'll recall, the very first thing I said on this thread is that the legitimacy of evolution does not preclude the potential existence of a god, in any way.  Several other have echoed this sentiment since I first said it, and all we're looking for is for you to be open enough to admit that the reverse must also be true...that if there really IS a god, and the Bible is his 'word', that this wouldn't automatically negate all scientific inquiry.

>I don't oppose your god per se anywhere near as much as I do the rigidity and closed-mindedness of so many of his 'chosen people'.  When religion becomes an excuse for prejudice, persecution, judgement and exclusion, it simply doesn't sell me on the idea of a loving, gracious god who 'watches over the smallest of his creatures'.  Utilizing dogma as a justification for refusing to think for yourselves is a blatant betrayal of your (theoretically) god-given intellect.

>Wouldn'd you like to be a galactic fly on the cosmic wall when (or IF!) we can ever definitively figure out how it all got started, why things work the way they do, the purpose of existence itself?  The acquisition of this particular knowledge is the one thing that physicists and theologists have in common.

>It would be the very height of hubris for EITHER of us to allow ourselves to be emotionally drawn into visualizing these discussion points in the mundane terms of 'right' and wrong', don't you think?!

>

k168mitchell

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 8

Report this May. 19 2012, 5:36 pm

only an idiot believes everything they read,dont forget  the bible was written by a MAN,with clipp notes and a feather.the purpose   way back  when was to gt people to follow the rules  so  hey i know  lets creat a bible and say it was good word.u follow it or your going to a bad place,now jump 3k years and look,were still under the thumb of zealots trying despreatly to take control of everythingok  jump  another 3k years and wat do u see,same thing.

DammitJim6200

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6876

Report this May. 19 2012, 10:02 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ May. 19 2012, 12:23 am

Quote: DammitJim6200 @ May. 18 2012, 11:39 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ May. 18 2012, 7:11 pm

Quote: DammitJim6200 @ May. 18 2012, 4:08 pm

>

>

>

>

>1. What "physical basis" are you looking for ? you want God to swoop down from heaven on a white horse carrying a bolt of LIGHTNING ?

>2. we can go to the Bible and find people, places and things that actually existed..

>3. Evolution concepts may change every10 years or with a new fossil discovery.

>

1. Pretty much. Yeah.

2. Sorry to disappoint, but many texts are based on places and contain events that are true -- that doesn't mean the whole thing is true.

3. Yes, our knowledge of the patterns and the history changes, but not the basic probability of evolution itself.

1. Sorry, Otakujo, God dosen't have time to play with us, he's made his presence known in other ways, on a clear night look up at the stars and you can see his works.

2.Many places and things in ancient times are known to occur and has been proven, though written in different languages, those people and places in the bible did exist, for example,Tacitus, a Roman historian who lived during the latter part of the first century C.E wrote: "Christus( latin for Christ)from whom the name Christian had it's origin ) suffered the extreme penalty of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus."

3. Evolution has not one but many theories that are still being debated. 

1. You asked me once what it would take to make me believe that god is real, and that's basically it. I have never said that it is impossible. The difference, however, is that I'm not trying to convince you that your god is not real -- You can draw whatever conclusions you like, but you still seem determined to convince everyone else. I'm saying the evidence is far too weak for that.
And besides, he's supposed to be all-powerful. He has all the time in the world -- literally. If he really, and I mean really, demands that everyone should believe in them, then that's exactly what he would have to do. Otherwise, one can only assume that it's not that big a deal whether each individual believes or worships, or what. If he doesn't need us then why would it matter whether we worship him or not?

2. Yes, there is a very good chance that many events in Jesus' life were historically true. (Although Christos is technically a Greek term, not Latin, and was applied to several other heroes before Jesus -- Heracles being the most prominent example.) However, it does not follow from that point that the assertions made in the Bible regarding natural science and creation &c. are also true. I could point to any number of books that contain historical people, events and places. Tacitus was a halfway decent historian but his writing about Jesus does not affect the natural sciences. Equally, I could point to the example of Herodotus. Much of what Herodotus wrote was true, and his work is classed as history, but an equally great part of what he wrote was also either mistaken or fictional.

But in any case, neither of the above two points has any real bearing on the arguments for/against evolution.

3. When a new fossil is discovered, the general response is to fit it into the evolutionary timeline. In the vast majority of cases, this can be done pretty easily -- Whale fossils in the Sahara with back legs still attached, Australopithicene skeletons in Africa, which is also where genetic studies confirm our ancestors would have come from... (and one of the major reasons that we have not found a "missing link" between human and chimp is that 6 million years ago, the climate simply wasn't right for the development of fossils.)

If any discovery particularly shifts our perception of prehistory, it is generally only the minor details that change (genetic evidence of Cro Magnon/Neandertal hybridisation, out of Africa theory -- whereas Homo Erectus finds led paleontologists to believe that human origins might have been in Asia, structural similarities between dinosaurs and birds... etc.) None of these have significantly altered the validity of evolution as a theory, and if anything they are far more likely to strengthen it.


Otakujo, clearly that vibrant thinking mind of yours is always at work, I bet you do good in your school studies..Well as I've stated before God is all powerful and all knowing he created us so much so he  created the universe and he dosen't need us in anyway but he do love us and we Do need him.For most of us proof of Gods existence isen't physical and he dosen't need to prove anything to us, God dosen't do parlor tricks to get our worship, we either do or we don't, those that do have faith in God can recieve his blessings, so, we don't expect him to appear before us as Morgan Freeman like in "Evan Almighty"..My belief in God is spiritual, most of us act on faith and what he says in the Bible.


True there were others who claim to be Christ, but only ONE died and was risen again..I too like Herodotus and read alot of what he wrote about the ancient times


As for evolution, again, while I love discovery and science, I do believe in evolution on a somewhat practical level, fossils has found larger forms of mammals back then that evolved in to the animals we have today like Tigers Elephants and the sea creatures, but as far a humans go, I find it debatable, and I still believe an intelligence is behind it all.  

DammitJim6200

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6876

Report this May. 19 2012, 10:04 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>DJ: I apologize for my outburst. I was frustrated at you. I don't like to get frustrated by a computer screen but I did. This is my unfortunate issue and not yours. Usually I take things with a grain of salt. For some reason this time I didn't. It seems I don't like to explain my self again and again. That is only an explanation and not an excuse. Once again I apologize.


Thank you, apology accepted.

DammitJim6200

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6876

Report this May. 19 2012, 10:13 pm

Quote: k168mitchell @ May. 19 2012, 5:36 pm

>

>only an idiot believes everything they read,dont forget  the bible was written by a MAN,with clipp notes and a feather.the purpose   way back  when was to gt people to follow the rules  so  hey i know  lets creat a bible and say it was good word.u follow it or your going to a bad place,now jump 3k years and look,were still under the thumb of zealots trying despreatly to take control of everythingok  jump  another 3k years and wat do u see,same thing.

>


Only an "Idiot believes everything they read" ? does that include books on EVOLUTION ? The Bible wasn't written by just anyone, my friend, the spiritual men that wrote the Bible got direction from God's spirit, and no one is trying to take control of anything, we either follow what the Bible say or we don't we have a choice.


 

shika_narks

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 852

Report this May. 19 2012, 10:21 pm

No I do not Accept evolution...No..NOPE! lol



Im a boy..

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