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Repeating History

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this May. 09 2012, 10:28 am

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>"Controlling "greed" is like controlling love or hate....  It's a BS argument.  What you're really calling for is chaining people.... limiting them so they aren't allowed to succeed."

>funny.  In another thread controlling love is exactly what you are calling for. Based on the theory that love you don't approve of is a "sin".  From what I remember last time I read the bible, greed was a sin as well.

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Yes I read that. Hypocricy at its finest.  

If you can't figure out the difference between motivation and action... then you're truly lost.


A person can hate another as much as they want... the're free to do so, but as soon as they act on that motivation, that changes everything.


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this May. 09 2012, 10:29 am

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>I still believe that all or any combinations of systems (capitalism, socialism, etc) will ultimately degenerate.  People are flawed and all systems are based upon the actions of people.  Maybe the best we can do is keep changing the systems from one to another, keeping the weaknesses of each off balance. Kind of like when the Enterprise kept changing the harmonics in their shields.

>

You're absolutely right. The trick is to adjust the settings before it goes completely wrong. 

which means destroying liberty.


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this May. 09 2012, 10:33 am

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>I think it's going to be impossible to make greed illegal.  Where would you even start with that one?  it would be a good thing though if rampant greed was socially unacceptable and good citizenship by a company was rewarded.  There was a time when businessmen took pride in employing their neighbours and building strong communities. 

>as to economic systems, none of them will every be perfect.  But it seems to me at a time when communication and understanding and compromise should be easier it is becoming more difficult.  People are becoming more shrill and dug into their own rigid beliefs and there is no compromise to be had.

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You can't make greed illegal. But you can control it by taxing, as in higher tax on trading stock, make it easier for small businesses to survive.  and make it possible to write off the expenses you have on employees. 

So... you want to limit the means of production.   Why aren't I surprised?  And you wonder why I started this thread.... you're demanding that we go down the exact same road that Hitler and Stalin, etc. did.


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this May. 09 2012, 10:39 am

Quote: chr33355 @ May. 09 2012, 8:49 am

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>I think it's going to be impossible to make greed illegal.  Where would you even start with that one?  it would be a good thing though if rampant greed was socially unacceptable and good citizenship by a company was rewarded.  There was a time when businessmen took pride in employing their neighbours and building strong communities. 

>as to economic systems, none of them will every be perfect.  But it seems to me at a time when communication and understanding and compromise should be easier it is becoming more difficult.  People are becoming more shrill and dug into their own rigid beliefs and there is no compromise to be had.

>

You can't make greed illegal. But you can control it by taxing, as in higher tax on trading stock, make it easier for small businesses to survive.  and make it possible to write off the expenses you have on employees. 

 So you want to punish the trading of stock because you find it greedy.  Why do you hate senior citizens policemen, firemen. soliders who trade stocks as part of their retirement?

They don't care because they think that the government will take care of them.  But, they don't realize where the money actually comes from.


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this May. 09 2012, 10:42 am

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>And since your clip mentioned Jews. They became the most hated people in Europe, because of their ruthless way of doing business.
Nope.  People hate Jews because they are God's Chosen People.

And if you're jealous because someone is better at business than you are.... well, that's just childish.  There will always be someone at the top in any competition.

See this is what I meant when I said that some people didn't quite get the history lesson right. I guess that included you. I got that impression when we were talking about revolutions in the other thread. And it wasn't so much about jealousy, But the way they treated non jews. and workers in general. They actually made a few christmas stories about  Ebenezer Scrooge those are excellent in portraying how Jews were back then . Unfortunately 6 million Jews didn't have a happy ending here in Europe. But You keep believing that it was because they were the chosen people. And see where that will get you. 

You believe that Hitler killed the Jews because he didn't like their business practices?  That's certifiably nuts!

No I'm saying that's why they were so hated, that no one did anything when they were put in "work Camps" other than wave goodbye.  But when the word got out that he was killing them. That's when the people that use to hate them did what they could to help them get to safety. Hitler couldn't do all this without support. And going after Jews was a good way of getting that support amongst the German population. His propaganda about Jews being a plague was just that, propaganda. Hitlers goal was to take over the world, create a master race and make "Lebensraum" for his people. You do know that Jews weren't the only civillians he killed right. They were just the most convinient ones to begin with, because of the Europeans severe dislike towards them.    

Yes, I know that Hitler hated everyone but his "Master Race", but when you go after God's Chosen, that says something.  Why do you think that Hitler also attacked the church and was very heavy into the occult?  He knew exactly what he was doing.

Then why did he leave the entire vatikan state intact? If what you're saying was right. That would have been the first place he would have leveled with the ground. 

because he was using the Vatican...



miklamar

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Report this May. 09 2012, 1:50 pm

My parents knew some influential people in Pakistan (back in the 1970s), and they said that the civilian government ran the country into the ground.  Then, the military would take control of the government and straighten out everything.  They would, in turn, hold elections and turn the government back over to the civilians, and the cycle would repeat itself.


So, I guess history often does repeat itself.


Var Miklama--Zakdorn, engineer. "A sound mind in a FULL body!" "Time, like latinum, is a limited quantity in the galaxy."

lostshaker

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Report this May. 09 2012, 6:14 pm

My parents knew some influential people in Pakistan (back in the 1970s), and they said that the civilian government ran the country into the ground.  Then, the military would take control of the government and straighten out everything.  They would, in turn, hold elections and turn the government back over to the civilians, and the cycle would repeat itself.



There are often deceptions and distortions at work in the scenario described above. The government gets involved, creates distortions that muddle up the market and private sector and then by all superficial appearances return management back to the private sector, which remains heavily regulated. The regulations remain to set the private sector up for failure, as such a set up subversively manipulates the masses into believing that big government is the only solution. The reality is that big government existed behind the scenes, but afterwards is embraced with open arms.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this May. 09 2012, 6:41 pm

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>BamBam , all your arguments are strawman arguments.

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Too much history proves otherwise.... but you go ahead and keep your head stuck in the ground...


Tureaz'47

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Report this May. 10 2012, 4:53 am

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ May. 08 2012, 4:22 pm

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>In seeing the current events around the world... Why are so many countries going down the exact same path as countries did just a few decades ago?  Why did France just vote in a socialist for President? Why did Greece elect some Nazis into parliament?  Why are so many governments going the authoritarian route?

>But if people actually look at Germany just before they elected Hitler, there are a lot of correlations.  And what astounds me is that so many people don't even know who Hitler was or what he did:

>http://gillreport.com/2011/09/video-wow-mini-doc-exposes-american-dont-know-who-hilter-was/

>(Note: The video covers a lot of things, so I'm only referencing the first few minutes.... although the rest of the documentary is very informative and thought provoking for some people.... and touches on many of the subjects we've been discussing on this forum recently.  The specific purpose of the entire video isn't specifically what I'm addressing, but it is a part of it when looking at the larger picture.)

>


Sounds like politics.


Key words used,


Socialist. Nazi. 


Clearly, you are not looking at the bigger picture but your own lone spectacles.


Do research into these areas based on fact and not assumption


Socialist keeps people living the tradition and lifestyle, much like Americans are reluctant to change for similar reasons.


Events current as they have always been; a few people trying to control the many. The many becoming educated and informed thanks to communication technology, questioning, reasoning and voicing their rights as a human being. small group with money trying to usurp the greater voice by any means possible, to keep their elite position and their false deitism a sidetrack and compromise to a persons belief and core institution of natural being. 


 


It's strange, being a catalyst for things that move outside.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this May. 10 2012, 7:58 am

Quote: Tureaz'47 @ May. 10 2012, 4:53 am

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ May. 08 2012, 4:22 pm

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>In seeing the current events around the world... Why are so many countries going down the exact same path as countries did just a few decades ago?  Why did France just vote in a socialist for President? Why did Greece elect some Nazis into parliament?  Why are so many governments going the authoritarian route?

>But if people actually look at Germany just before they elected Hitler, there are a lot of correlations.  And what astounds me is that so many people don't even know who Hitler was or what he did:

>http://gillreport.com/2011/09/video-wow-mini-doc-exposes-american-dont-know-who-hilter-was/

>(Note: The video covers a lot of things, so I'm only referencing the first few minutes.... although the rest of the documentary is very informative and thought provoking for some people.... and touches on many of the subjects we've been discussing on this forum recently.  The specific purpose of the entire video isn't specifically what I'm addressing, but it is a part of it when looking at the larger picture.)

>

Sounds like politics.

Key words used,

Socialist. Nazi. 

Clearly, you are not looking at the bigger picture but your own lone spectacles.

Do research into these areas based on fact and not assumption

Socialist keeps people living the tradition and lifestyle, much like Americans are reluctant to change for similar reasons.

Events current as they have always been; a few people trying to control the many. The many becoming educated and informed thanks to communication technology, questioning, reasoning and voicing their rights as a human being. small group with money trying to usurp the greater voice by any means possible, to keep their elite position and their false deitism a sidetrack and compromise to a persons belief and core institution of natural being. 

 

It's because I do look at the bigger picture and study history that I'm talking about this.  Read my posts and I've been warning people that this stuff would be happening.  I am not surprised at all.  And unless people wake up and look at history, it's going to get a lot worse.


And really, it's not even as difficult as the data mining that I work on.... the information is there... just have to open up your eyes and be willing to overcome the normalcy bias.  There are a lot of groups out there that are teling you this is their plan, and when they meet a milestone, people just ignore it.... which is fine by them, but not me.


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Jul. 01 2012, 4:47 pm

Just saw an article on FT.COM - "Back to the 1930s: the hammer, sickle and swastika" - just more information showing how we're repeating destructive history instead of learning from it.  

caltrek2

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Report this Jul. 02 2012, 2:14 am

A basic problem some people perpetuate in this thread is to confuse democratic socialism with totalitarian forms of government. They are two diammetrically opposed systems.


Under totalitarian systems, an elite imposes its will upon the masses. Under a democratic socialist system, the people are in control.


Sure, fundamental rights need to be protected in order to avoid a tyranny of the majority. Still the tyranny of the majority is a far different problem from the tyranny of a fascist elite.


Another problem is the focus some have on government taking away of individual liberties without an equivalent concern regarding the impact of private corporations on our lives.  Corporations may not be much of a presence in Pakistan, but they are a very real presence in the United States and other developed countries. They are not entirely evil, but unrestrained they can do much damage to the public health, welfare, and even to individual liberties.

miklamar

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Report this Jul. 02 2012, 9:32 am

The dictatorship of the majority is a strange expression.  If the majority of the people want the same things, then the minority (minorities) will either have to learn to accept it or ignore it or move somewhere else.


Some issues are just personal preferences, such as popular television shows, while other issues are important moral ones.  The personal choices can be easily overlooked or avoided, but the moral choices affect everyone.


While the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, I think the rights of all individuals to make their own freewill choices should be respected.


Var Miklama--Zakdorn, engineer. "A sound mind in a FULL body!" "Time, like latinum, is a limited quantity in the galaxy."

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Jul. 02 2012, 9:37 am

Quote: miklamar @ Jul. 02 2012, 9:32 am

>While the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, I think the rights of all individuals to make their own freewill choices should be respected.
That's a very dangerous concept..... who defines "needs"?  If majority "need" something and it outweighs the needs of the few, then that "justifies" atrocities.  A quick search through our history books shows this.


 


We could even take a look at today and look at the majority "needing" more money and demanding to steal it from the minority because the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Jul. 02 2012, 11:10 am

Quote: miklamar @ Jul. 02 2012, 9:32 am

>Some issues are just personal preferences, such as popular television shows, while other issues are important moral ones.  The personal choices can be easily overlooked or avoided, but the moral choices affect everyone.
Since many (most?) the ProRegressives don't believe in God (and the rest keep Him only in Church).... they say that there is no absolutes, which means morals are subjective.


Take a look at the morals of Hitler or Stalin - how many were murdered under their "moral" leadership???.... or if you don't want to look at history (saying that'll never happen again,) take a look at Sharia law.... where they "morally" do "honor killings" and are demanding a caliphate.


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