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Repeating History

King B IX

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 127

Report this May. 08 2012, 9:31 pm

Quote: Vicsage @ May. 08 2012, 7:53 pm

>

>Is it possible no system works?  Capitalism, fascism, socialism, communism, or anything else.  Maybe people are no damn good and are fatally flawed and ruin any system.

>


Actually it's quite simple. None of these Isms work alone, mix some of them together and control the greed and you have a system that works.


Money controls the world right now. But once the general population starts to suffer, then all hell brakes loose. Some things shouldn't be privatized like healthcare Public transportation, powerplants. That way you keep the price down. The same goes for medicine.  


 


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FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46304

Report this May. 08 2012, 9:39 pm

Quote: King B IX @ May. 08 2012, 9:31 pm

Quote: Vicsage @ May. 08 2012, 7:53 pm

>

>

>Is it possible no system works?  Capitalism, fascism, socialism, communism, or anything else.  Maybe people are no damn good and are fatally flawed and ruin any system.

>

Actually it's quite simple. None of these Isms work alone, mix some of them together and control the greed and you have a system that works.

Money controls the world right now. But once the general population starts to suffer, then all hell brakes loose. Some things shouldn't be privatized like healthcare Public transportation, powerplants. That way you keep the price down. The same goes for medicine.  

 

Controlling "greed" is like controlling love or hate....  It's a BS argument.  What you're really calling for is chaining people.... limiting them so they aren't allowed to succeed.


As for your examples.... every single one of the items you listed has proven that when privatized, prices go down while the product gets better.  Government, by definition, is waste.  While there are some appropriate places for limited government, but pretty much everything that government does is more expensive than when privatized.


King B IX

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 127

Report this May. 08 2012, 10:03 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ May. 08 2012, 9:27 pm

Quote: King B IX @ May. 08 2012, 8:35 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ May. 08 2012, 7:46 pm

Quote: King B IX @ May. 08 2012, 7:23 pm

>

>

>

>And since your clip mentioned Jews. They became the most hated people in Europe, because of their ruthless way of doing business.
Nope.  People hate Jews because they are God's Chosen People.

And if you're jealous because someone is better at business than you are.... well, that's just childish.  There will always be someone at the top in any competition.

See this is what I meant when I said that some people didn't quite get the history lesson right. I guess that included you. I got that impression when we were talking about revolutions in the other thread. And it wasn't so much about jealousy, But the way they treated non jews. and workers in general. They actually made a few christmas stories about  Ebenezer Scrooge those are excellent in portraying how Jews were back then . Unfortunately 6 million Jews didn't have a happy ending here in Europe. But You keep believing that it was because they were the chosen people. And see where that will get you. 

You believe that Hitler killed the Jews because he didn't like their business practices?  That's certifiably nuts!


No I'm saying that's why they were so hated, that no one did anything when they were put in "work Camps" other than wave goodbye.  But when the word got out that he was killing them. That's when the people that use to hate them did what they could to help them get to safety. Hitler couldn't do all this without support. And going after Jews was a good way of getting that support amongst the German population. His propaganda about Jews being a plague was just that, propaganda. Hitlers goal was to take over the world, create a master race and make "Lebensraum" for his people. You do know that Jews weren't the only civillians he killed right. They were just the most convinient ones to begin with, because of the Europeans severe dislike towards them.    


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King B IX

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 127

Report this May. 08 2012, 10:34 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ May. 08 2012, 9:39 pm

Quote: King B IX @ May. 08 2012, 9:31 pm

Quote: Vicsage @ May. 08 2012, 7:53 pm

>

>

>

>Is it possible no system works?  Capitalism, fascism, socialism, communism, or anything else.  Maybe people are no damn good and are fatally flawed and ruin any system.

>

Actually it's quite simple. None of these Isms work alone, mix some of them together and control the greed and you have a system that works.

Money controls the world right now. But once the general population starts to suffer, then all hell brakes loose. Some things shouldn't be privatized like healthcare Public transportation, powerplants. That way you keep the price down. The same goes for medicine.  

 

Controlling "greed" is like controlling love or hate....  It's a BS argument.  What you're really calling for is chaining people.... limiting them so they aren't allowed to succeed.

As for your examples.... every single one of the items you listed has proven that when privatized, prices go down while the product gets better.  Government, by definition, is waste.  While there are some appropriate places for limited government, but pretty much everything that government does is more expensive than when privatized.


You can succed without getting greedy. And you can still get rich if you're good enough. Maybe just not as fast. And controlling it is actually not so bad. because rich people tend to hide their money put it in off shore accounts. whereas if you paid the workers more, the money would be put back in rotation. and thereby making other people a little richer. See you want to convince me that any president of a large company is worth a 20 million dollar a year salary , but you will never be able to do that, unless he is able to sh*t gold.


Now for the privatizing part. See that is exactly were you're wrong and so is the "prove"  When Denmark joined the EU. Our largest  provider of electricity was run by the state. The Eu told us that we had to privatized it to ensure fair competition. Fair competition is great for every one. But of course when you privatize, the company has to make a profit for the shareholders as well as maintaining the facillity. Result. An increase in price by 200 percent. Please tell me how that is benefitting me in any way.  


And The products we buy today are not one bit better because of that competion. Must of the electronic devices we buy today are actually build not to last. Even a simple thing as a lightbulp. 


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chr33355

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1551

Report this May. 09 2012, 4:13 am

Quote: King B IX @ May. 08 2012, 7:23 pm

>

>And since your clip mentioned Jews. They became the most hated people in Europe, because of their ruthless way of doing business. 

>
 Wrong the Jews have been hated by Christians for centuries. There was no sudden rise of anti semitism before WW2 it had always existed in Europe.


chr33355

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1551

Report this May. 09 2012, 4:23 am

Quote: King B IX @ May. 08 2012, 10:34 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ May. 08 2012, 9:39 pm

Quote: King B IX @ May. 08 2012, 9:31 pm

Quote: Vicsage @ May. 08 2012, 7:53 pm

>

>

>

>

>Is it possible no system works?  Capitalism, fascism, socialism, communism, or anything else.  Maybe people are no damn good and are fatally flawed and ruin any system.

>

Actually it's quite simple. None of these Isms work alone, mix some of them together and control the greed and you have a system that works.

Money controls the world right now. But once the general population starts to suffer, then all hell brakes loose. Some things shouldn't be privatized like healthcare Public transportation, powerplants. That way you keep the price down. The same goes for medicine.  

 

Controlling "greed" is like controlling love or hate....  It's a BS argument.  What you're really calling for is chaining people.... limiting them so they aren't allowed to succeed.

As for your examples.... every single one of the items you listed has proven that when privatized, prices go down while the product gets better.  Government, by definition, is waste.  While there are some appropriate places for limited government, but pretty much everything that government does is more expensive than when privatized.

You can succed without getting greedy. And you can still get rich if you're good enough. Maybe just not as fast. And controlling it is actually not so bad. because rich people tend to hide their money put it in off shore accounts. whereas if you paid the workers more, the money would be put back in rotation. and thereby making other people a little richer. See you want to convince me that any president of a large company is worth a 20 million dollar a year salary , but you will never be able to do that, unless he is able to sh*t gold.  The problem is you are assuming that all rich pepole are greedy because they are rich.  You are correct you don't have to be greedy to be sucessful nor do you have to be greedy to be rich.  Most of their salary is in stock options which increase in value as the company does better so I can very easily say that a CEO is worth 20 mil a year but it won't convince you because you feel that is wrong.

Now for the privatizing part. See that is exactly were you're wrong and so is the "prove"  When Denmark joined the EU. Our largest  provider of electricity was run by the state. The Eu told us that we had to privatized it to ensure fair competition. Fair competition is great for every one. But of course when you privatize, the company has to make a profit for the shareholders as well as maintaining the facillity. Result. An increase in price by 200 percent. Please tell me how that is benefitting me in any way.  

And The products we buy today are not one bit better because of that competion. Must of the electronic devices we buy today are actually build not to last. Even a simple thing as a lightbulp. Oh so the electronic devices we buy today are not faster, have more processing power, have more features?


chr33355

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1551

Report this May. 09 2012, 4:29 am

Quote: King B IX @ May. 08 2012, 9:31 pm

Quote: Vicsage @ May. 08 2012, 7:53 pm

>

>

>Is it possible no system works?  Capitalism, fascism, socialism, communism, or anything else.  Maybe people are no damn good and are fatally flawed and ruin any system.

>

Actually it's quite simple. None of these Isms work alone, mix some of them together and control the greed and you have a system that works.  The problem is there is no way to control greed with out a system becoming totalitarian.

Money controls the world right now. But once the general population starts to suffer, then all hell brakes loose. Some things shouldn't be privatized like healthcare Public transportation, powerplants. That way you keep the price down. The same goes for medicine.  Government has never managed to keep the prices of things down unless it forces rationing on a product or service.

 


caltrek2

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2654

Report this May. 09 2012, 5:48 am

The notion that if only governmen would get out of the way is what led to the repeal of the Glass Steagal Act. The repeal ended the separation of commercial and investment banking. There were a few legislators who realized at the time that the repeal was a bad idea. Legislatores like Senator Byron Dorgan, who explained his oppostion at the time of passage in these words:


"We are, with this piece of legislation, moving towards greater risk. We are almost certainly moving towards substantial new concentration and mergers in the financial services industry, that is almost certainly not in the interests of consumers. And we are deliberately and certainly, with this legislation, moving towards inheriting much greater risk in our financial services industries. And so, I come to the floor to say that I regret that I cannot support the legislation. I think we will, in 10 years’ time, look back and say we should not have done that, because we forgot the lessons of the past."


So ten years later his predictions have come true. Yet there are some who have posted on this thread who ignore that chain of events, who ignore that clear evidence and continue to spout this fantastic notion that what has caused our problems is too much government interference. Those are the people who repeat the mistakes of history because they are so wrapped up in their own ideology that no amount of evidence can get through.


 

wissa

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 4024

Report this May. 09 2012, 7:04 am

"Controlling "greed" is like controlling love or hate....  It's a BS argument.  What you're really calling for is chaining people.... limiting them so they aren't allowed to succeed."


funny.  In another thread controlling love is exactly what you are calling for. Based on the theory that love you don't approve of is a "sin".  From what I remember last time I read the bible, greed was a sin as well.


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Vicsage

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 465

Report this May. 09 2012, 7:26 am

I still believe that all or any combinations of systems (capitalism, socialism, etc) will ultimately degenerate.  People are flawed and all systems are based upon the actions of people.  Maybe the best we can do is keep changing the systems from one to another, keeping the weaknesses of each off balance. Kind of like when the Enterprise kept changing the harmonics in their shields.


 

King B IX

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 127

Report this May. 09 2012, 8:23 am

Quote: chr33355 @ May. 09 2012, 4:23 am

Quote: King B IX @ May. 08 2012, 10:34 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ May. 08 2012, 9:39 pm

Quote: King B IX @ May. 08 2012, 9:31 pm

Quote: Vicsage @ May. 08 2012, 7:53 pm

>

>

>

>

>

>Is it possible no system works?  Capitalism, fascism, socialism, communism, or anything else.  Maybe people are no damn good and are fatally flawed and ruin any system.

>

Actually it's quite simple. None of these Isms work alone, mix some of them together and control the greed and you have a system that works.

Money controls the world right now. But once the general population starts to suffer, then all hell brakes loose. Some things shouldn't be privatized like healthcare Public transportation, powerplants. That way you keep the price down. The same goes for medicine.  

 

Controlling "greed" is like controlling love or hate....  It's a BS argument.  What you're really calling for is chaining people.... limiting them so they aren't allowed to succeed.

As for your examples.... every single one of the items you listed has proven that when privatized, prices go down while the product gets better.  Government, by definition, is waste.  While there are some appropriate places for limited government, but pretty much everything that government does is more expensive than when privatized.

You can succed without getting greedy. And you can still get rich if you're good enough. Maybe just not as fast. And controlling it is actually not so bad. because rich people tend to hide their money put it in off shore accounts. whereas if you paid the workers more, the money would be put back in rotation. and thereby making other people a little richer. See you want to convince me that any president of a large company is worth a 20 million dollar a year salary , but you will never be able to do that, unless he is able to sh*t gold.  The problem is you are assuming that all rich pepole are greedy because they are rich.  You are correct you don't have to be greedy to be sucessful nor do you have to be greedy to be rich.  Most of their salary is in stock options which increase in value as the company does better so I can very easily say that a CEO is worth 20 mil a year but it won't convince you because you feel that is wrong.

Now for the privatizing part. See that is exactly were you're wrong and so is the "prove"  When Denmark joined the EU. Our largest  provider of electricity was run by the state. The Eu told us that we had to privatized it to ensure fair competition. Fair competition is great for every one. But of course when you privatize, the company has to make a profit for the shareholders as well as maintaining the facillity. Result. An increase in price by 200 percent. Please tell me how that is benefitting me in any way.  

And The products we buy today are not one bit better because of that competion. Must of the electronic devices we buy today are actually build not to last. Even a simple thing as a lightbulp. Oh so the electronic devices we buy today are not faster, have more processing power, have more features?


No that's where you are wrong I'm not assuming that.  But it has been proven that a lot of them are in fact greedy. You see, a "Bonus" is in order when your company is doing well. But when you had to have the US government  bail you out, and you use the money to give yourself a fat bomus. That's greed. 



Oh so the electronic devices we buy today are not faster, have more processing power, have more features?





That is so not the point. It is perfectly legal for any producers of electronic devices to make sure it breaks down after a certain amount of time. to keep us buying new stuff.






 


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King B IX

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 127

Report this May. 09 2012, 8:28 am

Quote: wissa @ May. 09 2012, 7:04 am

>

>"Controlling "greed" is like controlling love or hate....  It's a BS argument.  What you're really calling for is chaining people.... limiting them so they aren't allowed to succeed."

>funny.  In another thread controlling love is exactly what you are calling for. Based on the theory that love you don't approve of is a "sin".  From what I remember last time I read the bible, greed was a sin as well.

>


Yes I read that. Hypocricy at its finest.  


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wissa

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 4024

Report this May. 09 2012, 8:30 am

I think it's going to be impossible to make greed illegal.  Where would you even start with that one?  it would be a good thing though if rampant greed was socially unacceptable and good citizenship by a company was rewarded.  There was a time when businessmen took pride in employing their neighbours and building strong communities. 


 


as to economic systems, none of them will ever be perfect.  But it seems to me at a time when communication and understanding and compromise should be easier it is becoming more difficult.  People are becoming more shrill and dug into their own rigid beliefs and there is no compromise to be had.


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King B IX

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 127

Report this May. 09 2012, 8:32 am

Quote: Vicsage @ May. 09 2012, 7:26 am

>

>I still believe that all or any combinations of systems (capitalism, socialism, etc) will ultimately degenerate.  People are flawed and all systems are based upon the actions of people.  Maybe the best we can do is keep changing the systems from one to another, keeping the weaknesses of each off balance. Kind of like when the Enterprise kept changing the harmonics in their shields.

>


You're absolutely right. The trick is to adjust the settings before it goes completely wrong. 


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King B IX

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 127

Report this May. 09 2012, 8:44 am

Quote: wissa @ May. 09 2012, 8:30 am

>

>I think it's going to be impossible to make greed illegal.  Where would you even start with that one?  it would be a good thing though if rampant greed was socially unacceptable and good citizenship by a company was rewarded.  There was a time when businessmen took pride in employing their neighbours and building strong communities. 

>as to economic systems, none of them will every be perfect.  But it seems to me at a time when communication and understanding and compromise should be easier it is becoming more difficult.  People are becoming more shrill and dug into their own rigid beliefs and there is no compromise to be had.

>


You can't make greed illegal. But you can control it by taxing, as in higher tax on trading stock, make it easier for small businesses to survive.  and make it possible to write off the expenses you have on employees. 


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