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wissa

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POSTS: 4031

Report this May. 09 2012, 7:04 am

"Controlling "greed" is like controlling love or hate....  It's a BS argument.  What you're really calling for is chaining people.... limiting them so they aren't allowed to succeed."


funny.  In another thread controlling love is exactly what you are calling for. Based on the theory that love you don't approve of is a "sin".  From what I remember last time I read the bible, greed was a sin as well.


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Vicsage

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Report this May. 09 2012, 7:26 am

I still believe that all or any combinations of systems (capitalism, socialism, etc) will ultimately degenerate.  People are flawed and all systems are based upon the actions of people.  Maybe the best we can do is keep changing the systems from one to another, keeping the weaknesses of each off balance. Kind of like when the Enterprise kept changing the harmonics in their shields.


 

wissa

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POSTS: 4031

Report this May. 09 2012, 8:30 am

I think it's going to be impossible to make greed illegal.  Where would you even start with that one?  it would be a good thing though if rampant greed was socially unacceptable and good citizenship by a company was rewarded.  There was a time when businessmen took pride in employing their neighbours and building strong communities. 


 


as to economic systems, none of them will ever be perfect.  But it seems to me at a time when communication and understanding and compromise should be easier it is becoming more difficult.  People are becoming more shrill and dug into their own rigid beliefs and there is no compromise to be had.


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chr33355

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POSTS: 1551

Report this May. 09 2012, 8:49 am

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>I think it's going to be impossible to make greed illegal.  Where would you even start with that one?  it would be a good thing though if rampant greed was socially unacceptable and good citizenship by a company was rewarded.  There was a time when businessmen took pride in employing their neighbours and building strong communities. 

>as to economic systems, none of them will every be perfect.  But it seems to me at a time when communication and understanding and compromise should be easier it is becoming more difficult.  People are becoming more shrill and dug into their own rigid beliefs and there is no compromise to be had.

>

You can't make greed illegal. But you can control it by taxing, as in higher tax on trading stock, make it easier for small businesses to survive.  and make it possible to write off the expenses you have on employees. 

 So you want to punish the trading of stock because you find it greedy.  Why do you hate senior citizens policemen, firemen. soliders who trade stocks as part of their retirement?


chr33355

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POSTS: 1551

Report this May. 09 2012, 8:55 am

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>Is it possible no system works?  Capitalism, fascism, socialism, communism, or anything else.  Maybe people are no damn good and are fatally flawed and ruin any system.

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Actually it's quite simple. None of these Isms work alone, mix some of them together and control the greed and you have a system that works.

Money controls the world right now. But once the general population starts to suffer, then all hell brakes loose. Some things shouldn't be privatized like healthcare Public transportation, powerplants. That way you keep the price down. The same goes for medicine.  

 

Controlling "greed" is like controlling love or hate....  It's a BS argument.  What you're really calling for is chaining people.... limiting them so they aren't allowed to succeed.

As for your examples.... every single one of the items you listed has proven that when privatized, prices go down while the product gets better.  Government, by definition, is waste.  While there are some appropriate places for limited government, but pretty much everything that government does is more expensive than when privatized.

You can succed without getting greedy. And you can still get rich if you're good enough. Maybe just not as fast. And controlling it is actually not so bad. because rich people tend to hide their money put it in off shore accounts. whereas if you paid the workers more, the money would be put back in rotation. and thereby making other people a little richer. See you want to convince me that any president of a large company is worth a 20 million dollar a year salary , but you will never be able to do that, unless he is able to sh*t gold.  The problem is you are assuming that all rich pepole are greedy because they are rich.  You are correct you don't have to be greedy to be sucessful nor do you have to be greedy to be rich.  Most of their salary is in stock options which increase in value as the company does better so I can very easily say that a CEO is worth 20 mil a year but it won't convince you because you feel that is wrong.

Now for the privatizing part. See that is exactly were you're wrong and so is the "prove"  When Denmark joined the EU. Our largest  provider of electricity was run by the state. The Eu told us that we had to privatized it to ensure fair competition. Fair competition is great for every one. But of course when you privatize, the company has to make a profit for the shareholders as well as maintaining the facillity. Result. An increase in price by 200 percent. Please tell me how that is benefitting me in any way.  

And The products we buy today are not one bit better because of that competion. Must of the electronic devices we buy today are actually build not to last. Even a simple thing as a lightbulp. Oh so the electronic devices we buy today are not faster, have more processing power, have more features?

No that's where you are wrong I'm not assuming that.  But it has been proven that a lot of them are in fact greedy. You see, a "Bonus" is in order when your company is doing well. But when you had to have the US government  bail you out, and you use the money to give yourself a fat bomus. That's greed. So the actions of a few means all are greedy. Your premise is still wrong as it still assumes they are rich only because they are greedy and greedy because they are rich.


That is so not the point. It is perfectly legal for any producers of electronic devices to make sure it breaks down after a certain amount of time. to keep us buying new stuff.  Most people buy a new electronic device not bcause theirs broke but because a newer better version came out.  You do realize there is no way to design an electronic device not to break which is what you seem to think we are capable of.


 


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this May. 09 2012, 9:07 am

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>And since your clip mentioned Jews. They became the most hated people in Europe, because of their ruthless way of doing business.
Nope.  People hate Jews because they are God's Chosen People.

And if you're jealous because someone is better at business than you are.... well, that's just childish.  There will always be someone at the top in any competition.

See this is what I meant when I said that some people didn't quite get the history lesson right. I guess that included you. I got that impression when we were talking about revolutions in the other thread. And it wasn't so much about jealousy, But the way they treated non jews. and workers in general. They actually made a few christmas stories about  Ebenezer Scrooge those are excellent in portraying how Jews were back then . Unfortunately 6 million Jews didn't have a happy ending here in Europe. But You keep believing that it was because they were the chosen people. And see where that will get you. 

You believe that Hitler killed the Jews because he didn't like their business practices?  That's certifiably nuts!

No I'm saying that's why they were so hated, that no one did anything when they were put in "work Camps" other than wave goodbye.  But when the word got out that he was killing them. That's when the people that use to hate them did what they could to help them get to safety. Hitler couldn't do all this without support. And going after Jews was a good way of getting that support amongst the German population. His propaganda about Jews being a plague was just that, propaganda. Hitlers goal was to take over the world, create a master race and make "Lebensraum" for his people. You do know that Jews weren't the only civillians he killed right. They were just the most convinient ones to begin with, because of the Europeans severe dislike towards them.    

Yes, I know that Hitler hated everyone but his "Master Race", but when you go after God's Chosen, that says something.  Why do you think that Hitler also attacked the church and was very heavy into the occult?  He knew exactly what he was doing.


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46331

Report this May. 09 2012, 9:23 am

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>You can succed without getting greedy. And you can still get rich if you're good enough. Maybe just not as fast. And controlling it is actually not so bad. because rich people tend to hide their money put it in off shore accounts. whereas if you paid the workers more, the money would be put back in rotation. and thereby making other people a little richer. See you want to convince me that any president of a large company is worth a 20 million dollar a year salary , but you will never be able to do that, unless he is able to sh*t gold.
You still refuse to see reason....  You can't legislate greed... only actions.


What you're telling me is that you want to limit someone's abilities.  That's as stupid as calling Michael Phelps "greedy" because he earned his gold medals and that you are going to put a 100 pound weight around his neck during the next competition.


And there's this idiotic view that rich people hide money and don't do put it back into circulation.  When a person that understands the value of money earns it, they use it to invest and create more wealth.  As for paying the workers more... that's an option if the work is worth the money.  Why would someone who understands the value of money pay someone $100 for a job worth $2???  They wouldn't!  They're being smart about where they put their money and you just denigrate them by calling them "greedy."


And what an individual makes is none of your business.  If they can justify it to their stockholders (if there are shareholders,) then that's it.  If someone comes in and takes a failing business and turns it around and makes a profit of a few billion.... they're worth a few million.  And if you think you can do a better job than them and get a lower salary, go for it.  That's competition.


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this May. 09 2012, 9:50 am

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>Capitolism and Democracy, the only 2 that work.
"Democracy" doesn't work as it's the tyranny of the majority.... when the majority learn that they can vote themselves money from the minority.... enslaving them, it destroys.


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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POSTS: 46331

Report this May. 09 2012, 9:59 am

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>Now for the privatizing part. See that is exactly were you're wrong and so is the "prove"  When Denmark joined the EU. Our largest  provider of electricity was run by the state. The Eu told us that we had to privatized it to ensure fair competition. Fair competition is great for every one. But of course when you privatize, the company has to make a profit for the shareholders as well as maintaining the facillity. Result. An increase in price by 200 percent. Please tell me how that is benefitting me in any way.  

>And The products we buy today are not one bit better because of that competion. Must of the electronic devices we buy today are actually build not to last. Even a simple thing as a lightbulp. 
Oh... I'm sure there are a few companies that do thing more expensively than the goverment... but very few.  In many threads, several of us have pointed out examples of things that used to be government and then privatized... saving a lot of money and the efficiency and quality went up.  With privatization, a company has to make a profit to survive, so they must have a product that people want to use.  But with the goverment, there is no such demand, so there is a lot of waste and absolutely no accountability... it's always someone else's money they're spending.


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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POSTS: 46331

Report this May. 09 2012, 10:01 am

Quote: chr33355 @ May. 09 2012, 4:23 am

>The problem is you are assuming that all rich pepole are greedy because they are rich.  You are correct you don't have to be greedy to be sucessful nor do you have to be greedy to be rich.  Most of their salary is in stock options which increase in value as the company does better so I can very easily say that a CEO is worth 20 mil a year but it won't convince you because you feel that is wrong.
Good point.  There are multiple executives that take absolutely no salary and all their money comes from stock... if they move the stock up, then they make something.  If the stock goes down, they don't get paid.


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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POSTS: 46331

Report this May. 09 2012, 10:04 am

Quote: chr33355 @ May. 09 2012, 4:29 am

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>Actually it's quite simple. None of these Isms work alone, mix some of them together and control the greed and you have a system that works.

 The problem is there is no way to control greed with out a system becoming totalitarian.

And what do you call the people at the top of a totalitarian regime????  GREEDY!!!!


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this May. 09 2012, 10:07 am

Quote: wissa @ May. 09 2012, 7:04 am

>

>"Controlling "greed" is like controlling love or hate....  It's a BS argument.  What you're really calling for is chaining people.... limiting them so they aren't allowed to succeed."

>funny.  In another thread controlling love is exactly what you are calling for. Based on the theory that love you don't approve of is a "sin".  From what I remember last time I read the bible, greed was a sin as well.

>
What many call "greed" is called "work ethic" by others.  Or a desire to produce.... a desire to profit from their labors.  The Bible has a lot of scripture surrounding making profit from one's labor.


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this May. 09 2012, 10:09 am

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>No that's where you are wrong I'm not assuming that.  But it has been proven that a lot of them are in fact greedy. You see, a "Bonus" is in order when your company is doing well. But when you had to have the US government  bail you out, and you use the money to give yourself a fat bomus. That's greed. 
What you're describing is cronyism...  and socialism... When the goverment comes in and uses taxpayer money to support a business.  That has nothing to do with capitalism.


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this May. 09 2012, 10:11 am

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>Oh so the electronic devices we buy today are not faster, have more processing power, have more features?

>

>That is so not the point. It is perfectly legal for any producers of electronic devices to make sure it breaks down after a certain amount of time. to keep us buying new stuff.

>

>
You're free to create your own and sell it.  That's what competition is all about - creating better products than your competitor.


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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POSTS: 46331

Report this May. 09 2012, 10:13 am

Quote: wissa @ May. 09 2012, 8:30 am

>I think it's going to be impossible to make greed illegal.  Where would you even start with that one?  it would be a good thing though if rampant greed was socially unacceptable and good citizenship by a company was rewarded.  There was a time when businessmen took pride in employing their neighbours and building strong communities. 
Some of us still do... but we're not going to overpay for the work.


It amazes me that when I hire someone to do job X, which is worth $10/hour and the employee agrees to that wage, I'm called "greedy" because I don't pay them more than the job is worth....


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